1. Donationkirksey957
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    28 Aug '06 01:58
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I didn't say a baseline required faith did I? I said that without a
    standard you cannot know if morality is falling or not.
    Kelly
    This is all just too complicated. Case in point a man named Ken Lay. A God-fearing and church going man. Stole from millions of people. Is he a moral man? Excuse me was he a moral man? There are man many people who will say, "I knew Ken Lay and he was the most humble Christian man you could imagine." So this is hard to quantify.
  2. Joined
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    28 Aug '06 02:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I deny that America is in a moral decline at all. The primacy of narrow, christian based morality may be in decline, but I don't give much credence to the claim that we're all going down the tubes. I think the further we distance ourselves from religion, he better off we'll be. Besides, the principle of the separation of church and state has been around sin ...[text shortened]... ones. But you can still have moral instruction without all the judeo-christian baggage.
    You don't believe that the morality of our culture within the public school systems is in decline? If you don't believe me, try reading this article from the department of Psychology.

    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/356.dworin/morality_and_education

    "The connection between morality and education. Why should morality be taught in schools? Throughout history, morality transmission has been present in education. Furthermore, many people believe that there is a connection between learning academically and the development of mental power, and the learning of moral values and the development of strength of character. The development of the intellect and the moral character are intimately related. Just as there is an order in nature (the laws of science), in reason (the laws of logic), and in the realm of numbers, so too is there a moral order. One thing we need to do is recover the belief that there is a transcendent, unchanging, moral order, and restore it once more to a central place in the educational process. (Nash) This is one main reason many people many people believe that morality education belongs in schools. Additionally, schools are responsible for guiding children in the step by step developmental process, and moral development or learning ethical values is a step in the process of greater development. (Maddock, 1972) Therefore, it can be seen partly as schools' responsibility to educate children in morality. Another reason why character education should have a place in school curriculum is the role that teachers play in students' lives. Children inherently know to respect and listen to people in position of authority. Teachers represent an important adult authority figure in students' lives and are therefore capable of making a huge impression upon students. Additionally, teachers spend a large portion of the day with the sutdents, often more than even the children's parents do with their kids. Therefore the teacher has ample opportunity to educate children not only in important academic subjects, but in character and values as well. (Schafersman, 1991) Further explanations for why many insist values education is needed in schools today are found in the increased incidence of emotional problems for adolescents, teen suicide and murder, and unwanted pregnancy among teens. In comparison with other generations, today's children and youth are seemingly more lacking in decency, integrity, concern for others and morality. It is hoped that incorporating more character education into schools will help lower many of the alarming statistics related to drug abuse, crime and emotional disorders among adolescents. The Association for Supervision and Curriculum teaching procedures compiled a report outlining ways to help better the current situation. They recommended more moral education in public school curricula, the development of clear guidelines for teachers so they can understand how to be character educators the creation of a societal and cultural atmosphere that supports moral behavoir by having parents, schools, religious organizations, the media, and all members of society working together to establish a positive evironment. Additionally, they advocate the incorporation of critical thinking and decision making skills in morality education, and the use of regular assessments of the moral ambiance of schools."

    How is that for a nonreligous source?
  3. Donationkirksey957
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    28 Aug '06 02:24
    Originally posted by whodey
    You don't believe that the morality of our culture within the public school systems is in decline? If you don't believe me, try reading this article from the department of Psychology.

    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/356.dworin/morality_and_education

    "The connection between morality and education. Why should morality be taught in schools? Throughout histor ...[text shortened]... assessments of the moral ambiance of schools."

    How is that for a nonreligous source?
    Can you give an example of how you would teach morals in a classroom in a public school?
  4. Donationrwingett
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    28 Aug '06 02:28
    Originally posted by whodey
    You don't believe that the morality of our culture within the public school systems is in decline? If you don't believe me, try reading this article from the department of Psychology.

    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/356.dworin/morality_and_education

    "The connection between morality and education. Why should morality be taught in schools? Throughout histor ...[text shortened]... assessments of the moral ambiance of schools."

    How is that for a nonreligous source?
    Conjecture and needless handwringing. A waste of my time.
  5. Standard memberamannion
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    28 Aug '06 03:35
    Originally posted by whodey
    You don't believe that the morality of our culture within the public school systems is in decline? If you don't believe me, try reading this article from the department of Psychology.

    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/356.dworin/morality_and_education

    "The connection between morality and education. Why should morality be taught in schools? Throughout histor ...[text shortened]... assessments of the moral ambiance of schools."

    How is that for a nonreligous source?
    This sounds like the usual doom and gloom about education.
    Standards are dropping, our kids are doomed.
    The reality is far from that. Education today, and the results students achieve, aren't significantly different from those of 10, 20 or 50 years ago.
    Society's changed a bit sure, and education has to some extent mirrored that change. But kids keep coming, and then going, and they get jobs or don't, have kids themselves, and on and on.
    Nothing much changes ...
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Aug '06 04:28
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    This is all just too complicated. Case in point a man named Ken Lay. A God-fearing and church going man. Stole from millions of people. Is he a moral man? Excuse me was he a moral man? There are man many people who will say, "I knew Ken Lay and he was the most humble Christian man you could imagine." So this is hard to quantify.
    This guy has what to do with the subject at hand? Would a culture
    in decline not have people failing to live up to standards we would
    have thought they should have lived up to? The fact that people
    fail to do what we think they should, isn't that something of the
    norm or not? Isn't is odd that we have a 'should behave like'
    standard, but blow it off as no big deal when people do not live
    up to it, doesn't that show some knowledge of decline and our
    denial of the same?
    Kelly
  7. Donationrwingett
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    28 Aug '06 14:20
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    This guy has what to do with the subject at hand? Would a culture
    in decline not have people failing to live up to standards we would
    have thought they should have lived up to? The fact that people
    fail to do what we think they should, isn't that something of the
    norm or not? Isn't is odd that we have a 'should behave like'
    standard, but blow it off as ...[text shortened]...
    up to it, doesn't that show some knowledge of decline and our
    denial of the same?
    Kelly
    Please do not speak for me by saying 'we.' Your standards are not my standards. So I have amended your post to more accurately reflect what you mean:

    This guy has what to do with the subject at hand? Would a culture
    in decline not have people failing to live up to standards I would
    have thought they should have lived up to? The fact that people
    fail to do what I think they should, isn't that something of the
    norm or not? Isn't is odd that we have my 'should behave like'
    standard, but blow it off as no big deal when people do not live
    up to it, doesn't that show some knowledge of decline and our
    denial of the same?
    Kelly


    Your standards are in decline. I know this and think it's a good thing.
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    29 Aug '06 05:43
    Originally posted by amannion
    This sounds like the usual doom and gloom about education.
    Standards are dropping, our kids are doomed.
    The reality is far from that. Education today, and the results students achieve, aren't significantly different from those of 10, 20 or 50 years ago.
    Society's changed a bit sure, and education has to some extent mirrored that change. But kids keep com ...[text shortened]... g, and they get jobs or don't, have kids themselves, and on and on.
    Nothing much changes ...
    Take it up with the sources the article gave reference to not with me or your own opinions.
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    29 Aug '06 06:02
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Can you give an example of how you would teach morals in a classroom in a public school?
    How would I teach morality? We could look back in time to see how it used to be taught or we can start from scratch. In 1782 the United States Congress passed the following resolution; "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for the use in all schools." Crazy huh? William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in the US public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963 when prayer was subsequently banned from public schools via seperation of church and state. President Lincoln called McGuffey the "Schoolmaster of the Nation". McGuffey declared; "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are dervived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governer of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology." What he seems to be saying here is that morality has a source. Therefore, he makes no apology for not attempting to bypass this source for the sake of political correctness. If you agree with McGuffey in that morality has a source ie God, should we then bypass this source or pretend its nonexistence in order to embrace its precepts via political correctness? This is the question I pose to you.
  10. Donationkirksey957
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    29 Aug '06 08:431 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    How would I teach morality? We could look back in time to see how it used to be taught or we can start from scratch. In 1782 the United States Congress passed the following resolution; "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for the use in all schools." Crazy huh? William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Rea er to embrace its precepts via political correctness? This is the question I pose to you.
    You gave me more of a historical lesson than a morality lesson. OK, let's start with a basic: "Moralitiy has a source in God." OK, whose God? Are you comfortable with a student leading prayer in school that prays for "the death of the infidels"? How about a Buddhist chant?

    Here is what I might find of interest in the classroom setting. You mentioned in the year 1782 Congress passed a resolution declaring the Bible appropiate for use in the schools. I would imagine at that time Blacks were segregated from public education at least in some parts of the country if not all. I would ask the students to write a paper on this resolution and the seeming conflict of ethics with segregated schools.
  11. Joined
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    29 Aug '06 12:05
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    You gave me more of a historical lesson than a morality lesson. OK, let's start with a basic: "Moralitiy has a source in God." OK, whose God? Are you comfortable with a student leading prayer in school that prays for "the death of the infidels"? How about a Buddhist chant?

    Here is what I might find of interest in the classroom setting. You ment ...[text shortened]... ite a paper on this resolution and the seeming conflict of ethics with segregated schools.
    Of coarse I believe in the Christian God as do you, no? If the Chrisitian God is God, then that morality should be based on him since he is the source of morality. We then have two options from the Christian perspective. Do we then, to be politically correct, not base our morality as God as the source even though he is, or do we recognized the authority by which it comes? Both scenerios are problematic from my perspective. If you teach the Christian morality, then those who disagree with that particular religion will be up in arms over your religious stance. If you deny the power thereof by which your morality comes, your morality is baseless and shifting according to popular opinion. For example, the example you gave about the morality of segregation comes to mind. During the time in which they were implemented, the majority within the society accepted these morals as acceptable. This morality was based upon popular opinion and cultural norms and not according to the Bible and God's law. This was despite the fact that the Bible was used in our schools as a general text to teach our children morality.

    It is my belief that as a Christian we should honor the human will as God does. Parents who want their children to be influenced by Christian morality should be given a Christian education. Parents who are secular humanists should be given the right to raise their children according to those principles etc. Within the public school system, however, secular humanism is the only politically acceptable moral stance due to the fact that they do not use the "G" word when discussing morality. Morality is then acceptable so long as it is devoid of religion. This is problematic, however, in that not every parent can afford the choice of a Christian/religious education. As we all know the public school education is the only "free" education in town. In this respect the Christian/religious parent is discriminated against.

    What then is the solution? It is my contention that the government should be paying schools an X amount of money per student to each school a parent CHOOSES to send their child to. The pulbic school system would disappear as we know it. Gone will be the days of the government pouring millions of dollars into failed school systems. This way schools can complete for your children and parents can send their children to the type of schools they desire them to attend. No longer will politicians dangle educational issues in front of your face in order to get elected. No longer will the governement dictate which kind of morality underpriviliged children will be influenced by.

    This would also solve another pet peeve of mine which is economic segregation that currently grips our public school system. Parents who are rich live in rich school systems. The voters in such areas consistently vote for money to be pumped into their school distrint and are then rewarded for doing so. They have nicer facilities and attract better teachers etc. Conversely, if you live in a poor school district you are not as priviliged. Money that comes into such schools is usually the bare minimum. These poorer school districts attract a greater socio-economic problems such as single parent families, disfunctional families via drug use etc. I think we all know what condition our inner city school systems are in. They are more like jails than schools. I know becuase I have personally witnessed such schools. I visited an inner city school once. All the doors where locked from the outside except one which was the main enterance. At this enterance there stood a gaurd in uniform and a metal detector. Every day a bloody fight would break out amongst the students. They told me where not to park so as not to get my car vandalized or stolen. Teenage girls were consistently referred to plan parenthood for the option of abortion. I could not help thinking that these children might be better left at home without an education than to be thrown into such an atmosphere. Talk about a moral vacuum!!!

    As we all know, those who are poor can only afford to live in a poor school district. What choices do you have? I know of a couple who decided to sell their home and move into an apartment just so their children would live in a richer school district. Of coarse they could not afford the houses in the richer school district. These children are the lucky ones, however. Most poor parents have no such options. This economic segregation, in a round about way, is nothing more than masked racial segregation. After all, we all know minorities are disproportionately poorer than those who are not minorities. You then attempt to overcome these disadvantages via programs like affirmative action. You tell these children that if they graduate high school, assuming they can even read and are not strung out on drugs, pregnant, in jail or dead, then they will then get preferential treatment to get into programs of higher education. Then what you have are children who are ill equiped to compete with their student counterparts in higher education who have been priviliged their entire lives. Granted some make it, but the sytem just stinks.

    I don't know where that came from but I feel much better know.😵
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    29 Aug '06 13:12
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Please do not speak for me by saying 'we.' Your standards are not my standards. So I have amended your post to more accurately reflect what you mean:

    This guy has what to do with the subject at hand? Would a culture
    in decline not have people failing to live up to standards [b]I
    would
    have thought they should have lived up to? The fact that peop ...[text shortened]... e?
    Kelly


    Your standards are in decline. I know this and think it's a good thing.[/b]
    Fine you don't think there is a 'should have' that applies to you and
    me, does this mean that Ken Lay didn't do as I thought he should,
    but in your case, he was just acting as you thought he should have?
    Kelly
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    29 Aug '06 13:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Please do not speak for me by saying 'we.' Your standards are not my standards. So I have amended your post to more accurately reflect what you mean:

    This guy has what to do with the subject at hand? Would a culture
    in decline not have people failing to live up to standards [b]I
    would
    have thought they should have lived up to? The fact that peop ...[text shortened]... e?
    Kelly


    Your standards are in decline. I know this and think it's a good thing.[/b]
    I doubt what you just said, like I do a lot of things you say while
    seaking about things of this nature. My standards are tell the truth
    and do well to those around me, treat them as I would be want to be
    treated, and you say you don't agree with me. So am I to understand
    that with you, you do not value truth, you don't like the idea of
    treating others as I would like to be treated, with you it is something
    different so when my values and morals are in decline it is a good thing.
    Kelly
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    29 Aug '06 13:17
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    You gave me more of a historical lesson than a morality lesson. OK, let's start with a basic: "Moralitiy has a source in God." OK, whose God? Are you comfortable with a student leading prayer in school that prays for "the death of the infidels"? How about a Buddhist chant?

    Here is what I might find of interest in the classroom setting. You ment ...[text shortened]... ite a paper on this resolution and the seeming conflict of ethics with segregated schools.
    In your opinion this is about God not morality?
    Kelly
  15. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    29 Aug '06 13:41
    Rep. Harris: Church-state separation 'a lie'

    MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- U.S. Rep. Katherine Harris told a religious journal that separation of church and state is "a lie" and God and the nation's founding fathers did not intend the country be "a nation of secular laws."
    The Republican candidate for U.S. Senate also said that if Christians are not elected, politicians will "legislate sin," including abortion and gay marriage.
    Harris made the comments -- which she clarified Saturday -- in the Florida Baptist Witness, the weekly journal of the Florida Baptist State Convention, which interviewed political candidates and asked them about religion and their positions on issues.
    Separation of church and state is "a lie we have been told," Harris said in the interview, published Thursday, saying separating religion and politics is "wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers."
    Electing non-Christians a 'legislative sin'
    "If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin," Harris said.
    Her comments drew criticism, including some from fellow Republicans who called them offensive and not representative of the party.
    Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Florida, who is Jewish, told the Orlando Sentinel that she was "disgusted" by the comments.
    Harris' campaign released a statement Saturday saying she had been "speaking to a Christian audience, addressing a common misperception that people of faith should not be actively involved in government."
    The comments reflected "her deep grounding in Judeo-Christian values," the statement said, adding that Harris had previously supported pro-Israel legislation and legislation recognizing the Holocaust.
    Harris' opponents in the GOP primary also gave interviews to the Florida Baptist Witness but made more general statements on their faith.
    Harris, 49, faced widespread criticism for her role overseeing the 2000 presidential recount as Florida's secretary of state.
    State GOP leaders -- including Gov. Jeb Bush -- don't think she can win against Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson in November. Fundraising has lagged, frustrated campaign workers have defected in droves and the issues have been overshadowed by news of her dealings with a corrupt defense contractor who gave her $32,000 in illegal campaign contributions.

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/28/senate.harris.ap/index.html
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