Separation of church and state

Could it be that this pillar of the American constitution is what has led to the deabtes between scientists and creationists?
Religion and religious thought has been pushed so far from the mainstream of education, that Creationists have attempted to bring it back by renaming it science.
What if we were to allow more open dialogue about religion?
What if we were to allow prayer if people wanted?
Might we see less animosity towards science?

Originally posted by amannion
Could it be that this pillar of the American constitution is what has led to the deabtes between scientists and creationists?
Religion and religious thought has been pushed so far from the mainstream of education, that Creationists have attempted to bring it back by renaming it science.
What if we were to allow more open dialogue about religion?
What if we were to allow prayer if people wanted?
Might we see less animosity towards science?

There is tremendous dialogue about religion. Just look at these forums.

The last time I checked people were allowed to pray. Who is stopping them?

Originally posted by kirksey957
There is tremendous dialogue about religion. Just look at these forums.

The last time I checked people were allowed to pray. Who is stopping them?

What I mean is that they are prevented from showing religious belief and faith in schools.

Originally posted by amannion
What I mean is that they are prevented from showing religious belief and faith in schools.

You can't show kindness in schools? I'll have some more to say about this later.

I am a minister and I have two kids in public school. When they are in school, I want them to learn the educational ciricullum. I want them to learn how to write, read, do math,, and engage in social activities that are part of school like band. If there is an aspect of religion that they would like to learn more about, they are welcome to come to me or investigate it at church. Church and home is the place where it is appropiate to learn about this.

Imagine if a parent came to church with his child and demanded instruction on math during the Sunday service. Would this be appropiate? Of course not. But let me explain anyway why it is not appropiate. They are not trained to teach your child about math in the same way your teacher in the public school is not trained to give your child religious instruction.

However, there are places to go if you feel you want your child to get religious instruction in the school system. There are private schools that do this.

If you have a job that does not involve ministry, you do not have a chance to engage in religious services during the day. That is because it is a job and not church. They pay your salary to work not to go to church.

Originally posted by kirksey957
I am a minister and I have two kids in public school. When they are in school, I want them to learn the educational ciricullum. I want them to learn how to write, read, do math,, and engage in social activities that are part of school like band. If there is an aspect of religion that they would like to learn more about, they are welcome to come to me o ...[text shortened]... . That is because it is a job and not church. They pay your salary to work not to go to church.

What about Bible classes taught in a Christian school or praying in a Chrisitan school? Is this appropriate or must an education be devoid of spirituality to be appropriate?

Originally posted by amannion
Could it be that this pillar of the American constitution is what has led to the deabtes between scientists and creationists?
Religion and religious thought has been pushed so far from the mainstream of education, that Creationists have attempted to bring it back by renaming it science.
What if we were to allow more open dialogue about religion?
What if we were to allow prayer if people wanted?
Might we see less animosity towards science?

No one wants "the state" or "the church" telling anyone how to think
about everything so having those separated is a good thing. The
trouble is that now it seems lines are now being drawn in what is
"the state's" power and right to say something and 'the church' right
to say something and it is going into ever area of people's life. Now the
battle field seems to be drifting into what is an acceptable religious idea
and what isn't and when and where it is okay to express it. The church
and the state are at odds with one another more and more in my opinion.
In my opinion we are moving towards the only acceptable religious
thought now is, is there a god, everything else is meddling into other
people’s lives if it is expressed in most public venues where a penny
of state money is being used, again my opinion, nothing more.
Kelly

Originally posted by whodey
What about Bible classes taught in a Christian school or praying in a Chrisitan school? Is this appropriate or must an education be devoid of spirituality to be appropriate?

Fine. Doo whatever you want in a Christian school. I also think that setting standards that meet the ciricullum of secular schools should be met. If prayer helps them get there, by all means pray or read the Bible. After all, those parents are the ones paying for the education.

Originally posted by kirksey957
I am a minister and I have two kids in public school. When they are in school, I want them to learn the educational ciricullum. I want them to learn how to write, read, do math,, and engage in social activities that are part of school like band. If there is an aspect of religion that they would like to learn more about, they are welcome to come to me o ...[text shortened]... . That is because it is a job and not church. They pay your salary to work not to go to church.

What about if the school is going to teach that abortion is ok and that euthanasia is ok ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
What about if the school is going to teach that abortion is ok and that euthanasia is ok ?

Don't you think the best stance for a school to take is no stance?

That is, that they should teach what abortion and euthanasia are
but not whether they are good or bad (I am assuming at age-appropriate
levels)?

Nemesio

Originally posted by ivanhoe
What about if the school is going to teach that abortion is ok and that euthanasia is ok ?

My only insight into American schools is through factual documentaries like "The Simpsons" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" so I don't know much but surely the schools don't say "abortion is OK" they just refuse to demonise it i.e it is a free choice for the woman. Am I way off the mark?

Sorry Ivanhoe, I know even less about schools in the Netherlands. Do they actually say "abortion is good"?

Originally posted by kirksey957
I am a minister and I have two kids in public school. When they are in school, I want them to learn the educational ciricullum. I want them to learn how to write, read, do math,, and engage in social activities that are part of school like band. If there is an aspect of religion that they would like to learn more about, they are welcome to come to me o ...[text shortened]... . That is because it is a job and not church. They pay your salary to work not to go to church.

I take your point and agree to some extent - as a teacher myself, I get sick and tired of schools constantly being forced to take on some new fad or other, and in effect, take the place of parents who should be teaching their kids some basics.

For religion however, I think it's a little different.
I live in a society which for the most part couldn't care less about religion. But that's not to say we aren't largely a religious society.
(I'm talking Australia here.)
Our whole society - from government, through policing and laws, to the judiciary, to schools and hospitals, and just about everything else are built within a judaeo-christian framework. Sure, there are muslims and buddhists and hindus and scientologists (LOL) and even the odd atheist like me - but it's essentially a christian society.
Now, that creates a framework for our society - rightly or wrongly - which I think schools should be able to discuss and consider with their students.
Which, in Australia, we do - in both private and public schools.

Why not in the US too?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
What about if the school is going to teach that abortion is ok and that euthanasia is ok ?

I don't think it is the best educational opportunity to "teach" a child that an issue like this is right or wrong. I'm much more interested in whether the child could write a coherent paper discussing the history and social implications of issues like that. Wouldn't you agree with this approach?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Imagine if a parent came to church with his child and demanded instruction on math during the Sunday service.

God as a whole tree full of apples. Eve takes one and eats it. How many people must God commit to Hell because Eve ate the apple?

Roger and his "friend" Jeremy live in the city of Soddom. Roger takes Jemery to the local baths, then to "The Corn Hole", a local bar in town. How hard must God smite the unclean to rid the earth of sin?

If masturbation is a sin and makes you go blind, what proportion of 12 year old males will be unable to see by the age of 15?

Come on, biblical maths everyone! There's enough for everyone!