Originally posted by BadwaterEven in the world of man, the one you are a part of that isn't true,
The premeditated taking of human life is murder. God has murdered. God may have had God's reasons for it but it is murder nonetheless. It has nothing to do with setting up the universe or giving life. It does have to do with the taking of life and that is where murder starts and ends. It has nothing to do with standards or who or what is, according to you, setting the standards.
Your odd dislogical fantasy God-world does not change that.
authority, reasons, do matter as the examples I gave show you.
Kelly
Originally posted by BadwaterSo for you the state murders when it executes people who were
Premeditated.
Premeditated, not deliberate.
Premeditated.
Murder is premeditated. Not accidental. Not defending in the response of a moment. Premeditated.
That's why I clarified murder in my first post on this thread, but you still seem to not get it and go for strawmen.
Premeditated.
convicted of crimes and judged worthy of death?
Kelly
Originally posted by BadwaterWhy a human life specifically? Why not animal or plant lives? Must the premeditator be human? You have already stated that when the 'state' premeditates it is guilty of murder, what about a lion? Surely God is in a totally different class from humans and thus murder is hardly the right word, or even if it is used, the act of God killing a human is in no way equivalent to a human killing a human. I am not saying it is any less 'wrong', if anything it is worse in my eyes, but that also depends on what 'killing' actually is. If I were to believe in God, then I would believe in an afterlife and killing would have a whole new meaning for me and possibly totally change my understanding of why murder is or is not wrong.
The premeditated taking of human life is murder.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadMurder only applies to humans. I didn't invent the word application, I just use it.
Why a human life specifically? Why not animal or plant lives? Must the premeditator be human? You have already stated that when the 'state' premeditates it is guilty of murder, what about a lion? Surely God is in a totally different class from humans and thus murder is hardly the right word, or even if it is used, the act of God killing a human is in no w ning for me and possibly totally change my understanding of why murder is or is not wrong.
The premeditator must be human, yes; I would think that is obvious but I'm constantly surprised at how unobvious the obvious seems to be. A lion - any predator - must kill other animals to survive. That's what they do and there isn't any indication that predators function mentally at a high enough level to be cognizant of anything other than they're hungry and trying to survive. You might have impressed me with using a great ape as an example instead; alas, you did not so no points for you. I will, however, bring up great apes - are they capable of murder and being murdered? I would say yes, however, I would be in an infitesimally small minority so I used a more commonly accepted definition.
But we weren't talking about the state or plants or animals, were we? Strawmen.....boy it's difficult to keep you folks on point here.
I'm assuming God is higher functioning. If God copulates with a woman we get a messiah and God would be relating on a human level in doing so. Likewise, if God kills a human God is relating on a human level. I don't see how killing all human save Noah's family is not murder. Any of you can waffle and make exceptions and harrumph about God is this or that, not this or that, bla bla bla bla bla but it's still murder.
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Originally posted by WulebgrIt is a matter of recognized right and wrong, we do not see things the
That was precisely the argument Clarence Darrow put forth while defending Leopold and Loeb.
same way. I recognize rightful authority and judgment over all. I was
hoping for some common ground, found none, so the bottom line that
they do not recognized God as an authority over all while He is, or even
apparently anyone else’s authority either when it comes to dealing out
a death penalty judgment. That is what they believe so be it, I can
agree to disagree, because we have different value systems.
Kelly
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I think we also have to look at the opposite of this. Wulebgr puts forth this sermon which is actually has truth in it.(as vile as it seems) The exception is when one becomes a believer is Christ. Also God would rather a sinner repent than be destroyed. So this Edwards seems to have a distorted view of God. While I agree we are in God's hands He was also missing the part about Christ for sinners slain.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71You need to read the full sermon, Edwards was quite clear about it all,
I think we also have to look at the opposite of this. Wulebgr puts forth this sermon which is actually has truth in it.(as vile as it seems) The exception is when one becomes a believer is Christ. Also God would rather a sinner repent than be destroyed. So this Edwards seems to have a distorted view of God. While I agree we are in God's hands He was also missing the part about Christ for sinners slain.
Manny
but he did not sugar coat anything.
Kelly
Originally posted by BadwaterMurder only applies to humans on humans I'd agree with, and the
Murder only applies to humans. I didn't invent the word application, I just use it.
The premeditator must be human, yes; I would think that is obvious but I'm constantly surprised at how unobvious the obvious seems to be. A lion - any predator - must kill other animals to survive. That's what they do and there isn't any indication that predators functio ...[text shortened]... out God is this or that, not this or that, bla bla bla bla bla but it's still murder.
apes statement about them being capable to murder was laughable.
Do apes have laws they apply to themselves, courts of law, you talk
ape to gather this intel?
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayNo, I was speaking to their intelligence, ability for self-awareness, and cognitive thought. Their potential capability for murder is laughable? You have a great deal to learn about animals, Kelly. A great deal.
Murder only applies to humans on humans I'd agree with, and the
apes statement about them being capable to murder was laughable.
Do apes have laws they apply to themselves, courts of law, you talk
ape to gather this intel?
Kelly
Originally posted by BadwaterMurder is a legal term, I'm not quite sure what you are giving apes
No, I was speaking to their intelligence, ability for self-awareness, and cognitive thought. Their potential capability for murder is laughable? You have a great deal to learn about animals, Kelly. A great deal.
credit for.
Kelly