16 Jan 10
Originally posted by rwingett==================================
You can pick any verse out of the bible and construe it to mean whatever you want. It is a waste of time. I want to know how you construe the doctrine of original sin as upholding human dignity and sense of self worth.
You can pick any verse out of the bible and construe it to mean whatever you want.
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No. As a matter of fact I cannot pick any verse from the Bible and construe it to mean whatever I want it to mean.
Look, your quip is a non-starter.
Salvation is God's idea. God came forward with a plan to save man. It did not originate with man. So God had to have cared for man.
Once again. The saving of man from his fallen condition was the idea of God, initiated by God, and started by God. So He had to care about man.
He loves man. And I gave you one little window into His heart.
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It is a waste of time. I want to know how you construe the doctrine of original sin as upholding human dignity and sense of self worth.
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The phrase "original sin" is not a phrase I am accustomed to using.
But if you mean that the sin of Adam has caused sin and death to pass on to all men, and how could this show that man has a high worth to God, that I may discuss.
Personally, when I think of the damaged caused by Adam's disobedience I always consider the salvation caused by Christ's obedience. The priniciple of one man's act enfluencing many people words both against us and for us.
Christ is called teh second man. Christ is called the last Adam. And Romans five is the chapter comparing Adam and Christ. The same principle of one man's action thrusting millions into a negative situation was also used in one man's obedience resulting in eternal redemption and eternal life for millions.
If you want to talk about "original sin" you might well also have to talk about "original righteousness".
At any rate, the worth of mankind should be evident even in the first two chatpers of Genesis. Man is connected to all other creatures, yes. But at the same time, special care surrounds man's creation.
In man's creation God takes council - "Let Us create man ...". Man made in the image of God argues for man's worth to God.
16 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillIf god loves man so darn much then why did he kick him out of the garden in the first place? God could have let them off with a stern warning, but no, he brings out the whippin' stick on the first offense. Not only against Adam and Eve, but for all their offspring in perpetuity. Mankind requires salvation only because god decreed that it should be so. Those are not the actions of a loving father. They are the actions of a capricious and vindictive tyrant. Your conception of love is morally impoverished.
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You can pick any verse out of the bible and construe it to mean whatever you want.
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No. As a matter of fact I cannot pick any verse from the Bible and construe it to mean whatever I want it to mean.
Look, your quip is a non-starter.
Salvation is God's ...[text shortened]... reate man ..."[/b]. Man made in the image of God argues for man's worth to God.[/b]
16 Jan 10
Originally posted by rwingettThese are the actions of a just Father. We have laws that man makes that have to be just, otherwise humans would suffer so much more then we do now.
If god loves man so darn much then why did he kick him out of the garden in the first place? God could have let them off with a stern warning, but no, he brings out the whippin' stick on the first offense. Not only against Adam and Eve, but for all their offspring in perpetuity. Mankind requires salvation only because god decreed that it should be so. Those ...[text shortened]... actions of a capricious and vindictive tyrant. Your conception of love is morally impoverished.
God sees the need to complete this justified process to assure it will never happen again. He is setting a president, one that will never have to be played out again.
16 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Setting a president?
These are the actions of a just Father. We have laws that man makes that have to be just, otherwise humans would suffer so much more then we do now.
God sees the need to complete this justified process to assure it will never happen again. He is setting a president, one that will never have to be played out again.
Your conception of love is the complete inversion of the concept. Any system that contains eternal damnation as a core component is not the work of a loving father. It is the work of a vindictive tyrant. Any father who drowns his children en masse is not a loving father. He is a genocidal maniac worthy of nothing but the utmost contempt. Anyone who can justify eternal damnation and genocide as 'loving' acts has no conception of what love is.
16 Jan 10
Originally posted by rwingettYou have to understand the concept of justice that is needed to show his love for us in the long term.
Setting a president?
Your conception of love is the complete inversion of the concept. Any system that contains eternal damnation as a core component is not the work of a loving father. It is the work of a vindictive tyrant. Any father who drowns his children en masse is not a loving father. He is a genocidal maniac worthy of nothing but the utmost cont ...[text shortened]... can justify eternal damnation and genocide as 'loving' acts has no conception of what love is.
If he had just slapped them on the hands and had just destroyed Satan, what repeating problems would that have set in motion for the future?
Think long and hard on this before you just react and answer.
16 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Think long and hard? Give me a break. Your justice is not justice and your love is not love. You take tyranny, vindictiveness, and genocide and try to pass them off as justice and love. Christians, with their debased sense of self worth, may think they deserve such sadistic treatment, but I do not. Especially from an allegedly omnipotent god who could easily have made things turn out differently.
You have to understand the concept of justice that is needed to show his love for us in the long term.
If he had just slapped them on the hands and had just destroyed Satan, what repeating problems would that have set in motion for the future?
Think long and hard on this before you just react and answer.
16 Jan 10
Originally posted by rwingettOk I tried to get you to think with some wisdom but as usual it's as knee jerk reaction.
Think long and hard? Give me a break. Your justice is not justice and your love is not love. You take tyranny, vindictiveness, and genocide and try to pass them off as justice and love. Christians, with their debased sense of self worth, may think they deserve such sadistic treatment, but I do not. Especially from an allegedly omnipotent god who could easily have made things turn out differently.
21 Jan 10
If God loves righteousness to an eternal degree it stands to reason that He hates iniquity to that same eternal degree.
Some people may consider that God should be goodness alone as a Benefactor or a Father only. But goodness with God arms itself with the authority to destroy evil. Destruction of evil is an action suited to mercy's own hand and heart.
God has deemed that sinners shall not forever oppress saints. Just as a village who suffers the death of some people because of a wild tiger will eventually slaughter the beast as an act of goodness to the village beset with such an evil.
God in the Bible is a Governor as well as a Parent; as a King (Jer.10:10; 46:18) as a Lawgiver (Jas. 14:12; Psa. 22:28). As a lawgiver, He must inflict punishement if His law is disobeyed. If He is a lawgiver then He is an enactor of penalties. And if He is an enactor then He must execute.
I would not like to be in the position to decide what is the appropriate punishment for rebellion against the ultimate Governor of all existence. I would not like the responsibility to decide what the one who rejects the incarnate redeeming God should be.
God says eternal punishment. Others will never be infected with that one's wicked example. Warning and reproof have not turned that rebel. Instructive and even sever discipline have not corrected him. Benevolence, God deems, has run its course and there is no result. Eternal punishment is the last sentence.
The time of correction is over. The time pf divine patience is over. The hope of repentence is over. All warning has been in vain. No further crimes will be tolerated. Others will never again be led astray by the rebel. God Himself has incarnated as a man and bleed and died in love to save him, but he rejects God's salvation.
Eternal punishment is the sentence. The rebel cannot win. The rebel cannot escape by beomming non-existence. The rebel against God and the redeeming love of God must lose and lose for eternity.
God is love. Yet this divine love also hates iniquity. The rejector cannot harden himself forever. The rebel cannot forever spurn Divine longsuffering. He must lose. The saved shall have endless happiness and the one refusing redemption must have endless woe.
The habit of the rebel is fixed and the evil is forever removed from God's creation.
It is important to realize that most of what we know about eternal damnation came from the same mouth that spoke such tremendous things about the love and mercy of God. God ordained that from the mouth of Jesus Christ would fall such words of encredible grace, longsuffering, mercy, and love but as well terrible judgment of everlasting destruction under the wrath of God.
We cannot take only the sweet words of Jesus. We have to take also His words of the ultimate justice of God against those who refuse to be saved.
22 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillAnd still no one has told me conclusively why only Jesus can save you. Some have tried ,but really dude, one size does not fit all. Jesus was a prophet of God as were some others. Everyone gets to the top of the same mountain but the view on the way up may be different from the other side🙂
If God loves righteousness to an eternal degree it stands to reason that He hates iniquity to that same eternal degree.
Some people may consider that God should be goodness alone as a Benefactor or a Father only. But goodness with God arms itself with the authority to destroy evil. Destruction of evil is an action suited to mercy's own hand and heart. ...[text shortened]... to take also His words of the ultimate justice of God against those who refuse to be saved.
22 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by karoly aczel=================================
And still no one has told me conclusively why only Jesus can save you. Some have tried ,but really dude, one size does not fit all. Jesus was a prophet of God as were some others. Everyone gets to the top of the same mountain but the view on the way up may be different from the other side🙂
And still no one has told me conclusively why only Jesus can save you.
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And I don't know if I can answer to your satisfaction either. But I will write something just the same.
It is the eternal purpose of God to "head up" all things in Christ. The rebellion of Satan and the rebellion of man left creation and the world in a state of collapse. The collapse into a heap of ruin has followed the rebellion of Satan and man against God.
The Bible says that God purposed that Christ would be the one to head up all things saving God's creation from the universal heap of collapse (also refered to by me as the UHP).
"Making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself, unto the economy of the fullness of the times to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him ..." (Ephesians 1:9,10)
God made Christ the Head over all things (v.22) Through all ages, all things will be headed up in Christ in the new heaven and new earth. Christ is appointed by God to be the salvation from the universal heap of collapse so that all creation is structured under His authority. That will be God's eternal administration and management. Christ as the unique Head is the one appointed by God to rescue the universe from the heap of collapse.
So there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.
Secondly, God's salvation is Christ Himself. It is to give Christ to man that Christ might be the Firstborn among many brothers. So to be saved is for God to send the Spirit of Christ into our hearts:
"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father." (Gal. 4:6)
Salvation is Christ Himself. And that is why it is only through Christ because Christ is the salvation.
Thirdly, Christ is the One who determines if a human being knows His Father or not:
"All things have been delivered to My by My Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and him to whom, the Son wills to reveal [Him]." (John 11:27)
Anywhere in the world and at any time and in any age Christ is the one who wills who will know the Father. Since no one knows the Father except him to whom the Son wills that he or she know, Christ is the unique way to the Father -
"Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
If no one knows the Father except by the will of the Son it stands to reason that Christ is the unique and only way to God.
Having said that, I would add that that may be different from saying "no one comes to the Father except through the religion of Christianity". In my opinion the two statements are not exactly the same. For "no one comes to the Father except through Me" means that a Person, a living Person, Christ the Son of God determines who knows God.
To explain further, here is an example where some people were saved because of the Son yet they seemed not to know the Son themselves:
"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave Me [something] to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in. Naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
And the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed [You], or thirsty and have given [You] drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken [You] in, or naked and have clothed [You]?
And the King will anser and say to them, truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me ... but the righteous into eternal life." (See Matthew 25:34-40,46)
In this passage there is, IMO, room for the interpretation that some people who did not know of Jesus will be saved. The truth is upheld that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. Yet this special situation seems to they did not really know the One through Whom they have been granted an everlasting life.
How they treated those who belonged to Christ is here the deciding factor.
" ... Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me."
This special case probably does not include anyone who is able to discuss the Gospel on this Forum.
Now this may still not be an adaquate answer to your question, "Why only through Jesus?" But you're not alone in contemplating such a matter.
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Some have tried ,but really dude, one size does not fit all. Jesus was a prophet of God as were some others. Everyone gets to the top of the same mountain but the view on the way up may be different from the other side
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I don't think you can be larger in heart than God. And I don't think man can come up with a more inclusive and wider way of salvation than God can.
There are indeed many paths up the mountain. But the mountain is one and has one top.
Beyond this I proclaim with Abraham his trust that the universal Judge will do right:
"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You! Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Genesis 18:25).
22 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillSounds as if basically your saying that because it was written in the bible that no one gets to the father except through Jesus then thats the reason its the only way.
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And still no one has told me conclusively why only Jesus can save you.
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And I don't know if I can answer to your satisfaction either. But I will write something just the same.
It is the eternal purpose of God to "head up" all things in Christ. The rebelli ...[text shortened]... all the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Genesis 18:25)[/b].[/b]
I have my own interpretation of the bible but I think if I was to espouse it I would just be accused of bending the words to suit my own views.
Thanks for the answer all the same.
I still think there is more than one way to get to God.
23 Jan 10
2 edits
Originally posted by karoly aczel============================================
Sounds as if basically your saying that because it was written in the bible that no one gets to the father except through Jesus then thats the reason its the only way.
I have my own interpretation of the bible but I think if I was to espouse it I would just be accused of bending the words to suit my own views.
Thanks for the answer all the same.
I still think there is more than one way to get to God.
Sounds as if basically your saying that because it was written in the bible that no one gets to the father except through Jesus then thats the reason its the only way.
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This reply of yours leads me to believe that you did not read too carefully what I wrote because I tried to avoid reasoning that way.
This reply leads me to think you had a ready answer before you read. Did you not notice the things I wrote about God heading up all things in Christ? Did you not read what I wrote about Christ Himself being the salvation?
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I have my own interpretation of the bible but I think if I was to espouse it I would just be accused of bending the words to suit my own views.
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I would not judge until I read what you thought. Even then I can't say I would judge at all. The question you asked is not an easy one.
I am happy that you are reading the Bible anyway. And I think you should supplement your reading with prayer for guidance. Perhaps the Holy Spirit render greater help in understanding this issue.
You can tell me what you think.
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Thanks for the answer all the same.
I still think there is more than one way to get to God.
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When Paul speaks of Christ in Ephesians he discribes Him as the dimensions of the universe. The dimensions of the universe are so large as to be infinite or virtually infinite.
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge -surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God." (Eph. 3:17-19)
In this passage "the breadth and length and height and depth" are simply the dimensions of the universe which today are so extensive as to be beyond our imagination.
How broad is the breadth? How long is the length? No one knows. How high is the height and how deep is the depth? Paul's word picture is that the nature and love of Christ are as wide as the universe itself.
So there are many ways that man may come to enjoy God the Father through this extensively large Christ. And we cannot easily place Him into a box though we often try.
So I believe that "through the Son" or through Christ has a larger lattitude then we can imagine.