Some countries growing up, forgetting religion:

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Yes they do!
The great thinkers of the 16th, 17th, 18th & 19th Centuries came from the
privileged classes. A small minority of the population.

The 20th & 21st centuries are seeing an explosion of ideas thanks to universal
education and opportunity.

Who knows where the next outstanding mind will come from? A family that
teaches Creationism to its kids? or a family that encourages curiosity, questioning and
knowledge?

a great and exceptional mind does not accept creationism and will begin to question it as soon as they are exposed to the outside world.

a great and exceptional mind isn't content with what information is being fed. it wants more. as soon as he/she will acquire enough information, the creationist upbringing will matter little.

unless of course you are discussing about an abusive environment, but even then, people can break free. there are examples of people leaving the westboro baptist church. we might as well be discussing the great minds we are losing to the native tribes of the amazonian jungle.

if you cannot break free from a cult, you are not that exceptional or great.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
a great and exceptional mind isn't content with what information is being fed. it wants more. as soon as he/she will acquire enough information, the creationist upbringing will matter little.

I disagree. I believe that a great and exceptional mind is to a large extent a product of its upbringing.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
a great and exceptional mind does not accept creationism and will begin to question it as soon as they are exposed to the outside world.

a great and exceptional mind isn't content with what information is being fed. it wants more. as soon as he/she will acquire enough information, the creationist upbringing will matter little.

unless of course you ...[text shortened]... azonian jungle.

if you cannot break free from a cult, you are not that exceptional or great.

Which, if true, leaves millions of people under the influence of bad guys who will use the political power to their own ends. You don't take an IQ test to vote. A dude with an 80 IQ is just as powerful politically speaking with one person one vote as a guy with 180 IQ.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I disagree. I believe that a great and exceptional mind is to a large extent a product of its upbringing.

judit polgar was the product of her father madness. she was home schooled and chess was hammered into her from the beginning of her life. and now she is a top ranking player. name one other great mind that achieved greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.


of course, we cannot know for sure how many great minds were lost because they were thaugt creationism. we do know that some nobel prize winners had insane ideas. shockley was a great fan of eugenics. philip lenard was an anti-semite. brian josephson was a telepath. so if they managed to do science while holding stupid and unscientific ideas, what would make creationism any different?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Which, if true, leaves millions of people under the influence of bad guys who will use the political power to their own ends. You don't take an IQ test to vote. A dude with an 80 IQ is just as powerful politically speaking with one person one vote as a guy with 180 IQ.

you can't educate the masses, that's what i am trying to say. if you don't have creationism, you will have snooki endorsing someone and getting them the votes of douchebags. this scenario is ludicrous, isn't it? yet creationism gets magic powers that other stupid ideas do not.


"Which, if true, leaves millions of people under the influence of bad guys who will use the political power to their own ends"
so what you are saying is that, if creationism would be gone, all these politicians that proclaim their belief in god to get votes will stop that? they will magically address real problems instead of doing whatever it takes to win votes? or maybe they will race to have richard dawkins or the ghost of hitchens to endorse them to get atheist votes?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you can't educate the masses, that's what i am trying to say. if you don't have creationism, you will have snooki endorsing someone and getting them the votes of douchebags. this scenario is ludicrous, isn't it? yet creationism gets magic powers that other stupid ideas do not.


"Which, if true, leaves millions of people under the influence of bad guy ...[text shortened]... will race to have richard dawkins or the ghost of hitchens to endorse them to get atheist votes?

Well all you have is speculation so I think what will happen will be a major improvement on having the educational system hijacked by creationists.

Don't forget, that takeover of education agenda is only the beginning for them, they have made that abundantly clear on their websites. They want nothing more and nothing less than a complete takeover of the US government to complete the Iranization of the US only with christianity subbing for Islam.

Not that I think they could ever get that far but that is what they are aiming for, with the subverting of the educational system as just one step along the way.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
name one other great mind that achieved greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.

Name one great mind that did not achieve greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Name one great mind that did not achieve greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.

Stephen Hawking.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
judit polgar was the product of her father madness. she was home schooled and chess was hammered into her from the beginning of her life. and now she is a top ranking player. name one other great mind that achieved greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.


of course, we cannot know for sure how many great minds were lost because they were thaugt c ...[text shortened]... science while holding stupid and unscientific ideas, what would make creationism any different?

My favourite example of a crackpot genius would be Gottlob Frege. Arguably an architect of C20 (and beyond) and a card-carrying member of the Memorable Order of Tinfoil Hats.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I hate to break it to you but PEOPLE are quite capable of figuring out what is right and what is wrong, they don't need man made fairy tales that reference gods all the time as if the god is the ultimate arbitrator. The ultimate arbitrators are people. As it turns out, unknown to theists around the world, people have actual intelligence! I know that comes a ...[text shortened]... nd out of the need for the constant god reference and just do morality based on human condition.

i hate to break it to you, but People are quite capable of figuring out what is right and wrong. Ya, just ask the people of sodom and gamora. Or better yet, Nazi Germany, or better yet, all those people living under terrorism in Africa. You know, countries that like to sell thier women as slaves and make whores of children. Oh, yes, we can figure it out for ourselves. And i'm telling you we had better figure it out damn soon.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
My favourite example of a crackpot genius would be Gottlob Frege. Arguably an architect of C20 (and beyond) and a card-carrying member of the Memorable Order of Tinfoil Hats.

That is Funny, really

Originally posted by twhitehead
Name one great mind that did not achieve greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.

This British scientist was born in Newington Butts, London on 22 September 1791. Faraday was born as the third-child in a poor family, where his father James was a blacksmith. Due to the poor family background young Faraday could not enjoy the niceties of a big school and had to largely educate himself. He developed a great love for reading after he became apprenticed to a local bookbinder and bookseller George Riebau. After studying the work of great scientists and authors he developed an interest in science, particularly in electricity. It was his early reading and experiments with the idea of force, that enabled him to make imperative discoveries in electricity later in life.



blacksmith father. poor. probably religious. all he did was allow faraday to make his own way in life. and he did, despite his conditions.



more here:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19248_6-uneducated-amateurs-whose-genius-changed-world.html



let's get one thing clear. we are not talking about abusive parents who hammer creationism into their children and forbid them from going to school, or taking any jobs other than working in their cult/parish. we are talking about creationists who are good parents. who just have a certain world view. in those cases, a good upbringing is much more important than getting the kid in church every sunday and repeating noah's story over and over.

as a different example, do you think children raised by vegan parents as vegans will never consider eating meat?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Well all you have is speculation so I think what will happen will be a major improvement on having the educational system hijacked by creationists.

Don't forget, that takeover of education agenda is only the beginning for them, they have made that abundantly clear on their websites. They want nothing more and nothing less than a complete takeover of the ...[text shortened]... ey are aiming for, with the subverting of the educational system as just one step along the way.

geez. what you're talking about is paranoia. you read about the opinions of some , very few, and hold them as general knowledge about the whole group?

43% in your poll claimed they believe the world to be 6000 years? let's discuss this for a second.

how was the poll conducted? how many old people were questioned? how many young people? how was the question formed? there is a big difference between "how old is the earth?" and "isn't it true that the earth is 6000?". how many responded with "i don't know, i don't care, 6000 maybe?". when was the poll conducted? where was it conducted. you get very different results if you go in arkansas, or you go on MIT campus.

these are but a few problems with your poll. all might show that your dreaded 43% might not be so dreaded after all.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Well all you have is speculation so I think what will happen will be a major improvement on having the educational system hijacked by creationists.

Don't forget, that takeover of education agenda is only the beginning for them, they have made that abundantly clear on their websites. They want nothing more and nothing less than a complete takeover of the ...[text shortened]... ey are aiming for, with the subverting of the educational system as just one step along the way.

all i have is speculation?
i speculate that the matter is not really black and white as you portray it. that maybe the end of civilization at the hands of christians is not really upon us.


what do you have?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Name one great mind that did not achieve greatness mostly through his/her upbringing.

did you know genius Isaac Newton believed in alchemy, long after everyone else realized how dumb it was?

like i said, we are talking about stupid instilled beliefs, and whether or not it dooms you to a life of drooling stupidity.