1. Melbourne, Australia
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    09 Sep '12 16:33
    VoidSpirit prompted me on this one. Thanks VS.

    Iconoclasm is sometimes badly needed.

    Whether of Buddha or Jesus, the Messiah of the Christians, or The Bible or The Koran become an idolatrous icon substituing for The Eternal Wonder they call God or Allah. This makes the manifestation frozen as something out there, an object fixation. What is needed is to lessen the making physical (a book or a person) the equivalent of God and open to "his" (if you need to generise God) all embracing Openness.

    I believe Jesus of Nazareth the person would be deeply hurt by the idolatrous object he has become, and I think dear Buddha would commiserate. But for the Buddha there is a conceptual distancing from the real Buddha that is always allowed. "The Buddha" is a symbol of many things, but least of all an idol to be unquestionngly obeyed. He was The Great Occasion that greatly pushed forth the knowing of the No-Self, of the Voidal, of the Middle Path. Many Buddhists are quite able to approah Buddha in this way, as I do. That figure is a means to wider understanding in meditation, seeing ourselves reflected, and the three great ways realisation is manifested - together. This is not Buddha the man at all, but his honored figure used to symbolise Awakening and we are taught all are buddhas, we just haven't fully relised it yet, well, some have. His name is means the Awakened One, Or The Ever Awakened. Sitting there in and as Awareness.

    OM MANI PEDME HUNG!

    It is a bit different unfortunately for the manufactured idolatrous image of Jesus of Nazareth, along with the "infallible direct Word of God" (for fundamentalist idolaters of all sorts), "the Bible". Jesus was a man like Siddartha Gautama and woud NEVER call himself the ONLY SON OF GOD!. The SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY is idolatrous gobbledegook!!
    It was manufactured for power reasons by the Early Roman Church, hand in hand with Emperors.. It kept the masses in line.

    Jesus can be a wonderful symbol and Teacher, and Master, but he IS NOT GOD!
    He would deny it vehemently!
    By objectifying any Ultimate Truth like that you are actually closing your minds from "GOD", THAT which comes to you all the time through everything, (including Jesus and the Bible) if you could but see. You are boxing your spirit in and tying it to one form and actively closing off possibility of a wider awareness for a long time.

    It is a manufactured bit of religious propaganda that he is the only one by whom anyone can be saved! Adn that includes directly rubbing out any idolatrous passages in the somewhat put together writings of "The Bibe" under the orders of an Emperor, using the mass and forced conversion of the masses. He saw the political power of a movement that had grown on a developed "working myth" - of an exalted Jesus of Nazareth, adopting the myths of the strong movement known as Gnosticism.

    The Christian Church perhaps due for a bit of iconoclasm if it is to share as brothers and sisters of others rather than arrogantly promote itself as the "ONLY!"
    - and the same for any other idolatrous 'ONLIES"
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Sep '12 16:51
    Originally posted by Taoman
    VoidSpirit prompted me on this one. Thanks VS.

    Iconoclasm is sometimes badly needed.

    Whether of Buddha or Jesus, the Messiah of the Christians, or The Bible or The Koran become an idolatrous icon substituing for The Eternal Wonder they call God or Allah. This makes the manifestation frozen as something out there, an object fixation. What is needed is ...[text shortened]... omote itself as the "ONLY!"
    - and the same for any other idolatrous 'ONLIES"
    Said the Atheist.

    Enough said.
  3. Joined
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    09 Sep '12 19:25
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Said the Atheist.

    Enough said.
    Said the theist

    Enough said.
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    09 Sep '12 21:22
    Originally posted by Taoman
    VoidSpirit prompted me on this one. Thanks VS.

    Iconoclasm is sometimes badly needed.

    Whether of Buddha or Jesus, the Messiah of the Christians, or The Bible or The Koran become an idolatrous icon substituing for The Eternal Wonder they call God or Allah. This makes the manifestation frozen as something out there, an object fixation. What is needed is ...[text shortened]... omote itself as the "ONLY!"
    - and the same for any other idolatrous 'ONLIES"
    RHP should throw you scoobie snacks to do weekly op's here on the SF. Good one Taoman!

    It is a curious paradox that there are more statues of the Buddha than any other religious figure. lol.
  5. Joined
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    10 Sep '12 00:45
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    RHP should throw you scoobie snacks to do weekly op's here on the SF. Good one Taoman!

    It is a curious paradox that there are more statues of the Buddha than any other religious figure. lol.
    i just ordered one today. a beautiful wood carved piece - 12 inches tall
    😕
  6. Joined
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    10 Sep '12 01:211 edit
    humans are sentimental creatures. it is not surprising that they surround themselves with icons.

    a piece of the soul becomes entrapped in each piece and has the potential to turn into a monster like a mogwai in your psyche.

    it can be very liberating to purge the icons. destroying the physical objects is just an unnecessary act of symbolism that represents the real goal of purging the icons from your mind and freeing your soul.

    purging your mind of icons should be a daily ritual.
  7. Melbourne, Australia
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    10 Sep '12 02:07
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    RHP should throw you scoobie snacks to do weekly op's here on the SF. Good one Taoman!

    It is a curious paradox that there are more statues of the Buddha than any other religious figure. lol.
    It is a paradox physically, but we are talking about open and closed attitudes here. The Buddha numerous times encouraged an open exploring attitude and that is well known. There is a difference as you know between a symbolic and an idolatrous attitude. Not all Christians hold this attitude, just idolatrous fundamentalists, found in all extreme sections of religions.

    I do think there can be a tendency even within Buddhism to overdo the Buddha figure a bit, sometimes with an excessive emphasis on the man rather than his message. To balance it there are many other symbols it has, from the simple enso, to stupas, etc. - and an open, embracing and peaceful attitude toward other religions.

    This little bit of iconoclasm sounds divisive, doesn't it? But its intention is not that but to remove division. Hopefully we do not abuse and down people but confront an unfortunate and obstructive attitude. Another paradox.
  8. Melbourne, Australia
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    10 Sep '12 02:301 edit
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    humans are sentimental creatures. it is not surprising that they surround themselves with icons.

    a piece of the soul becomes entrapped in each piece and has the potential to turn into a monster like a mogwai in your psyche.

    it can be very liberating to purge the icons. destroying the physical objects is just an unnecessary act of symbolism that re ...[text shortened]... ns from your mind and freeing your soul.

    purging your mind of icons should be a daily ritual.
    Another way of purging your mind of excessive devotion to symbols is to treat them with friendly casualness and humor too. Burning is not necessary unless the disease has spread too far. But I agree - a good purging of a mental sort particularly, can be releasing of the entrapment. One learns the skill eventually of not getting entrapped in the first place.

    I got involved with Kashmir Shaivism in my earlier explorations along the road, but the tantric use and devotion to murtis of Shiva (I had one) became an obstacle to my mind and caused me to move on, or me to move it on 🙂.

    Tantric deities are not "real" in tantric Buddhism either and they are not a vehicle that is helpful to me either, for similar reasons.

    Its different with my mate Hotei, with his special spot, laughing away all obstacles. And he's a sort of Buddha that isn't a buddha, or the awakened happy Buddha in all of us.
  9. Melbourne, Australia
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    10 Sep '12 02:39
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Said the Atheist.

    Enough said.
    I seek to make your own faith more fruitful and open, more embracing. Really be like Jesus of Nazareth, your Master eh? Do not be so closed in your mind, for your own sake and the sake of a suffering world.
  10. Joined
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    10 Sep '12 17:45
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Another way of purging your mind of excessive devotion to symbols is to treat them with friendly casualness and humor too. Burning is not necessary unless the disease has spread too far. But I agree - a good purging of a mental sort particularly, can be releasing of the entrapment. One learns the skill eventually of not getting entrapped in the first place. ...[text shortened]... s. And he's a sort of Buddha that isn't a buddha, or the awakened happy Buddha in all of us.
    "laugh at the devil and he will flee from you." -probably martin luthor

    bringing up budai reminds me of an essay on sisyphus by albert camus.

    sisyphus if you know your mythology, was a king who tricked the gods and in return they punish him with an eternal task of pushing a rock up a hill only to watch it roll back down again.

    albert camus sees this in another light, and he ends his essay with a wonderful enlightening message.


    I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.


    life is all about the journey, not the destination.
  11. Melbourne, Australia
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    10 Sep '12 23:52
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    "laugh at the devil and he will flee from you." -probably martin luthor

    bringing up budai reminds me of an essay on sisyphus by albert camus.

    sisyphus if you know your mythology, was a king who tricked the gods and in return they punish him with an eternal task of pushing a rock up a hill only to watch it roll back down again.

    albert camus sees t ...[text shortened]... must imagine Sisyphus happy. [/quote]

    life is all about the journey, not the destination.
    Fine post, and I embrace the finest of quotes. I know Sisyphus, and the esteemed Camus. I have decided to add it to my profile. Thank you for that gift, VS.

    No destination whatsoever, how wonderful!
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Sep '12 00:56
    Originally posted by Taoman
    I seek to make your own faith more fruitful and open, more embracing.
    And less about Jesus. No thanks.
  13. Joined
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    11 Sep '12 01:53
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    And less about Jesus. No thanks.
    the primitive religions don't allow you to question your faith. and henceforth, you are diminished.
  14. Melbourne, Australia
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    13 Sep '12 16:32
    "Where the sword wheel flies,
    sun and moon lose their shine;
    when the jewel staff strikes,
    heaven and earth lose their color.
    Through this experience,
    all devil's guts burst;
    through this experience,
    all sages eye's open."

    Zen Master Xuedou

    From "Zen Essence - The Science of Freedom"
    Trans. Thomas Cleary..
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    13 Sep '12 17:18
    Originally posted by Taoman
    It is a paradox physically, but we are talking about open and closed attitudes here. The Buddha numerous times encouraged an open exploring attitude and that is well known. There is a difference as you know between a symbolic and an idolatrous attitude. Not all Christians hold this attitude, just idolatrous fundamentalists, found in all extreme sections of re ...[text shortened]... ot abuse and down people but confront an unfortunate and obstructive attitude. Another paradox.
    Sure. You hypocrite!
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