Sonhouse

Originally posted by divegeester
Exactly, love, empathy, wonder, meaning (meaning indeed!!) - this life is NOT just that which is seen.

You want to harp on about my admittedly broad use of the word "seen" as if I am only talking about what we sense through out eyes, then fine. If I haven't been able to make myself understood. Fine. I am not proselytizing, after all.

Originally posted by FMF
Just because I don't seek to have any impact on your beliefs doesn't mean I don't have spiritual beliefs. Why is it important for you to make pronouncements on what my beliefs are and are not? Is it an important element of your own "spirituality" to do so?

Apologies, I forgot that you are a theist.

Originally posted by FMF
You want to harp on about my admittedly broad use of the word "seen" as if I am only talking about what we sense through out eyes, then fine. If I haven't been able to make myself understood. Fine. I am not proselytizing, after all.

The point made by Wolfgang regarding the meaning of life was: "what you see is what you get" as a descriptor for the process of experiencing this life. I think it is widely accepted that the term "what you see is what you get", denotes that there is nothing more which cannot be been seen by the eyes. The term describes the simple objectivity obtained from the immediate sensory experiences and that there is nothing more. I'm just debating with you as a point of interest, that whilst you agreed with Wolfgang's statement of life, your language is clearly of someone who sees beyond the sensory; in fact as you have reminded me in the other post, you are a theist.

Originally posted by divegeester
I think it is widely accepted that the term "what you see is what you get", denotes that there is nothing more which cannot be been seen by the eyes.

Well then perhaps I have been using the words "see" and "get" idiosyncratically. But I rather think not. Indeed I think your definition is rather odd in this context.

Would you have us believe that wolfgang59 doesn't experience any inner emotions - such as frustration, fear, satisfaction, passion, hope - all bog standard things that we "get" in life - and all abstract things that do not rely on the "eyes" to be perceived or to exist?

"What we see is what we get"... not immortality, not "instructions from God", and other unseen things that some people choose to "imagine" because, for one reason or another, what they see and get in this life is deemed insufficient.

Originally posted by FMF
Well then perhaps I have been using the words "see" and "get" idiosyncratically. But I rather think not. Indeed I think your definition is rather odd in this context.

Would you have us believe that wolfgang59 doesn't experience any inner emotions - such as frustration, fear, satisfaction, passion, hope - all bog standard things that we "get" in life - and a one reason or another, what they see and get in this life is deemed insufficient.

I don't know what Wolfgang59 experiences emotionally but I would not ascribe emotions as being something beyond "what you see is what you get", in terms of the meaning of life, would you?

Either there is more to this life than meets the eye, or there is not. You being a theist, must have some conception of this, or indeed, why be a theist? Your use of the word "wonder" in the context of this universe also implied to me that you think there is more than meets the eye.

Of course I accept your own judgement of yourself and your own thoughts; however it is very difficult to divide between what different people believe is meaning, and that which is abstract, and that which is spiritual and that which is imagined. I am convinced that some Christians have this issue a lot.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't know what Wolfgang59 experiences emotionally but I would not ascribe emotions as being something beyond "what you see is what you get", in terms of the meaning of life, would you?

Exactly.

Your use of the word "wonder" in the context of this universe also implied to me that you think there is more than meets the eye.

Wonder is an amalgam of curiosity, open mindedness, observation of the human condition, the experiencing of emotion, reflection, insight. And some other things too, most likely.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
You are absolutely right because your view of things is much bigger than wolfgang59's view.

You can read the mind of FMF and mine too ... amazing!

"What you see is what you get" was meant to illustrate that this is IT. There is no more - but as several posters have pointed out - who wants more? The Universe is amazing, the World is amazing, WE are amazing, my backyard is totally amazing, my unborn daughter is AWESOME.

Why does anyone want more?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
You are optimistic and wolfgang59 is pessimistic,as is quite obvious from your and his posts.He is saying life has no meaning and you are saying this is not so.In my view (and it is not a"religionist" view as you have condescendingly called it but a common sense view) your vision is broader.But you say I am wrong !!
Don't you accept a compliment from a theist ( that too a Hindu theist)?

I do not see my world view as pessimistic (or optimistic) just realistic. I strive to enjoy my life and enrich those around me (maybe that is meaning) but I do not subscribe to any view that suggests that I or we have been placed here for a predestined purpose.

That does not mean that we cannot give our own lives purpose. (OBVIOUSLY)

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You can read the mind of FMF and mine too ... amazing!

"What you see is what you get" was meant to illustrate that this is IT. There is no more - but as several posters have pointed out - who wants more? The Universe is amazing, the World is amazing, WE are amazing, my backyard is totally amazing, my unborn daughter is AWESOME.

Why does anyone want more?

I do not claim to be a mind reader,although such people can exist e.g.our wives.So I have taken your left handed compliment in the right spirit which is that it is an attempt at irony.I have simply taken your post and FMF's post literally.
Myself and Divegester have both interpreted FMF's post to mean that he is seeing with his mind's eyes i.e. with a much bigger/integrated/connected view of the world than your view which to put it as simply as you put it-you get what you see.But to our puzzlement,FMF does not agree.He is a plain theist but in one post he says that he is actually a deist ! I wish him all success in his pursuit of truth,if he is so engaged.
A realist is often a pessimist in disguise.Humans have mostly been aspirational dreamers. Had they been realistic to a person,none of our scientific and cultural advances would have been possible.Moreover,as some posters have pointed out,it is better to be a Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Myself and Divegester have both interpreted FMF's post to mean that he is seeing with his mind's eyes i.e. with a much bigger/integrated/connected view of the world than your view which to put it as simply as you put it-you get what you see.But to our puzzlement,FMF does not agree.

Yes, that's right. You talk about a "bigger/integrated/connected view of the world". I have no reason whatsoever to think that wolfgang59, as a sentient being, does not have a considered view upon the world and the human condition.

I certainly do not presume to claim that mine is a "bigger view" in some way - indeed, I don't really know what a "bigger view" is! Do you think you have a "bigger view" than me? Or do you fear you have a "smaller view" than me? "Bigger" and "smaller", what do you mean? I am puzzled by your assertion.

I suspect that you and Divegeester are thinking in terms of a "god" that has interacted with humans, issued instructions, and is perceived to be offering some form of everlasting life - "big" stuff. But I reject all this. If I am wrong about what you have in mind, I look forward to hearing the why and what of it.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Why does anyone want more?

A few ideas: upbringing and parental influence; cultural pressures; dissatisfaction with life; lack of fulfillment; loneliness; sense of belonging; fear of death or an inability to come to terms with its inevitability; a need to bow to an "authority"; a need for a "narrative"; a kind of technocratic self-confidence rooted in an interest in theology; a means of manipulating others by way of dogma; a way of coercing children; an effort to conjure up "meaning" as a reaction to a life not being lived to the full. I also think that "wanting more" and convincing oneself that there is "more" brings joy, satisfaction, a code for living for many millions of people, and I do not begrudge them that at all.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
[FMF] is a plain theist but in one post he says that he is actually a deist !

Well I have claimed to be a theist on this forum, but some have argued that I am a deist instead. I prefer 'theist' as if to resist the commandeering of the vocabulary by religionists. If you want to portray my mentioning of both words as some kind of confusion on my part, you can if you want to, but I don't think it will enhance the dialogue.

Originally posted by FMF
Yes, that's right. You talk about a "bigger/integrated/connected view of the world". I have no reason whatsoever to think that wolfgang59, as a sentient being, does not have a considered view upon the world and the human condition.

I certainly do not presume to claim that mine is a "bigger view" in some way - indeed, I don't really know what a "bigger view" ...[text shortened]... out what you have in mind, I look forward to hearing the why and what of it.

wolfgang59's view appeared on plain reading as a superficial acceptance of life as it was.Since you used terms such as wonder,love etc,we thought you had taken a richer( if this term appeals to you-I do hope it does)view of life,rather crudely put by me earlier as a bigger or broader view.No matter what words I have used,my feeling is that you had gone a step ahead of wolfgang59.If my impression is wrong I stand corrected.
Let me state here that when a theist tries to present his views on this thread,he need not be accused of proselytizing. A Hindu never tries to ask others to join his faith. I believe in God.I don't think of God as a door-to-door salesman trying to peddle his wares as you suggest.Nor can I think of God as a separate individual entity ruling us/issuing instructions to us from above.My view of God is that God permeates the entire universe and beyond.For the moment and for convenience of worship,I may think of God as a separate entity but I believe that the entire universe is the expression of God.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
wolfgang59's view appeared on plain reading as a superficial acceptance of life as it was.Since you used terms such as wonder,love etc,we thought you had taken a richer( if this term appeals to you-I do hope it does)view of life,rather crudely put by me earlier as a bigger or broader view.

Well wolfgang59 himself summed up his view as "...the Universe is amazing, the World is amazing, WE are amazing, my backyard is totally amazing, my unborn daughter is AWESOME." Sounds "rich" to me.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I don't think of God as a door-to-door salesman trying to peddle his wares as you suggest.

As I suggest? Er, no. Perhaps you mean "insinuate" or "imply"? They'd be words we could debate, but not "suggest". I have revealed enough, I think - and clearly enough too - for you to tackle what I have actually said rather than what you say I have "suggested". "Door-to-door salesman" and "peddle" are words far too loaded for me to accept them as being in any way attributable to me! 😀