Sonship Says : God is Not Righteous ..

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I think your mental habits are such that you have difficulty approaching topics from any direction other than the One Right Way To Think On The Matter. Hence the handle.

As if that explains your straw man argument.

All you've done here is transition to argumentum ad hominem.

Originally posted by Rajk999
.. if he causes one believer in Christ to be lost.

This has to be the most glaring example of Christians abdicating all responsibility for their conduct and actions, and blaming someone else [in this case God] for their failure. Fools dare where angels fear to tread.

Judas Iscariot was lost because of his sins. And their were others like Ananias and ...[text shortened]... sins.

Is this view held by Sonship typical of the Christian community?

Comments welcome.

I don't know if it is typical of all Christians or Christian Communities

I do think they were punished for their actions / choices / sins .... as far as what God did to them after death I will not speculate

It is never God's fault when one sins that is for sure

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I don't know if it is typical of all Christians or Christian Communities

I do think they were punished for their actions / choices / sins .... as far as what God did to them after death I will not speculate

It is never God's fault when one sins that is for sure

Manny

I think his idea is that God is unrighteous if his does not forgive Christians for all their sins, so that they can still get eternal life.

I think people ( Christians ) forget God is sovereign He can do as He chooses

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I think people ( Christians ) forget God is sovereign He can do as He chooses

Manny

You are correct about that. However, there are some Christians who believe that God has promised to forgive ALL those who claim to believe in Christ, and promise them that their eternal life is secure and cannot be revoked.

Originally posted by Rajk999

I think his idea is that God is unrighteous if his does not forgive Christians for all their sins, so that they can still get eternal life.
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The long explanations do not mean the truth is complicated. It means that some people are very stubborn and dense with unbelief. So we take more time to try to help them.

What you have disputed is the simple truth of 1 John 1 :9.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That doesn't meet your personal religious approval for a number of really foolish reasons. But it is strange that you don't recall Christ's commands to His disciples about their forgiving one another -

" Then Peter came and said to Him, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him ? Up to seven times ?

Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, Up to seven times, but Up to seventy times seven." (Matt. 18:21,22)

1.) The reason Jesus commands His disciples to exercise unlimited forgiveness is based upon the realization that each of them has been so deeply and repeatedly forgiven by God.

2.) The following parable in verse 23 - 35 indicate this.

3.) Seventy times seven indicates continual forgiveness as God has faithfully and RIGHTEOUSLY forgive the one trusting in Christ's redemption.

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Does such unlimited forgiveness from God tie God's hands so that He cannot deal with the sinner's character ?

Answer: No. For the parable of the unforgiving servant (immediately following) ends with him being disciplined.

" Should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you ?

And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed.

So will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt. 18:33-35)

The discipline to the unforgiving slave is temporary and bounded by a point in time ..."until".. Otherwise, if it was eternal it would not say " UNTIL ... " any particular point in TIME.

The truth is not complicated here. Patience and time is taken to try to help the unbelieving that God knows just what He is doing.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]I think his idea is that God is unrighteous if his does not forgive Christians for all their sins, so that they can still get eternal life.
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The long explanations do not mean the truth is complicated. It means that some people are very stubborn and dense ...[text shortened]... Patience and time is taken to try to help the unbelieving that God knows just what He is doing.[/b]

Your own references condemn your twisted doctrine. The reference says

IF YOU CONFESS YOUR SINS, THEN YOU ARE FORGIVEN.

IF .. IF

Is it your contention that All Christians confess their sins ?

Did you also read in the very same 1 John, the writer continues a few verses down about the necessity of following the commandments of Jesus?

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:4-5 KJV)

You say that it is not important to follow Christ commandments/
You condemn those who say that its is.
You call them legalistic and Pharisees
You insult and ridicule them.
You preach that Jesus is in another dispensation and therefore not applicable
You fabricate excuses why you dont need to

But the Bible says that the Christian that does not keep Christ commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Your own references condemn your twisted doctrine. The reference says

IF YOU CONFESS YOUR SINS, THEN YOU ARE FORGIVEN.

IF .. IF

That's right. Is this suppose to be some devastating problem to what I believe ?
It is not.

God has a way of turning up the brightness of the light until it is so convicting that one cannot longer not confess. He has this age and the next to perfect His sons.

Is it your contention that All Christians confess their sins ?

Eventually, for sure.

Did you also read in the very same 1 John, the writer continues a few verses down about the necessity of following the commandments of Jesus?

Yes.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:4-5 KJV)

The key word there is PERFECTED. Since Jesus prayed for His people that they would be PERFECTED, they will be perfected.

If you do not do well in your college studies you will graduate late. You may have to take remedial courses. You may have to go to summer school. But you will do the things needed for graduation.

This is a helpful yet not perfect analogy of the process of being perfected in God's salvation. Procrastination does not perpetually put of the need to mature. It only gives God a little trouble. Sooner or latter you will be perfected. So why not sooner rather than latter ?

You say that it is not important to follow Christ commandments/

Quote me where I said that or retract the statement as misrepresentative and actually dishonest.

Did you read the commandments about not bearing false witness ?

You condemn those who say that its is.

Another lie. I scold those who say eternal life is not a gift as the NT teaches.
I rebuke those who persistently teach that Christ's redemption is not eternal.
That is people like you.

In your next post to me I expect you to QUOTE me where I ever wrote that to it is [i] "not important to follow Christ commandments"

Your next post should provide that pasted QUOTATION to that effect.
Or if you have any sense of integrity, you will apologize for the blatantly false accusation.

You call them legalistic and Pharisees

If I recall correctly, I referred to the Lord Jesus about the parable of the Prodigal Son, a parable I said could also be called the Parable of the Forgiving Father.

It could also be called the Parable of the Jealous Elder Brother. And to my perception Jesus told the parable for the sake of the jealous scribes and Pharisees who did not understand the grace of God's forgiveness and welcoming the "dead" son "back to life".

Their legal attitude simply didn't understand God's salvation as taught by Jesus.

You insult and ridicule them.
You preach that Jesus is in another dispensation and therefore not applicable
You fabricate excuses why you dont need to

Any accusation that I teach Christians to see how disobedient they can be is pure slander which you cannot back up with quotations.

But the Bible says that the Christian that does not keep Christ commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

The New Testament often has strong words for believers not cooperating with the indwelling grace. However, none of them involve the revoking of eternal redemption.

And it is the experience of many who disciple others that a FIRM FOUNDATION in eternal salvation is part of a good preparation for normal spiritual growth.

Rajk999 really wants to twist what I said about God not being rigtheous IF He does not forgive the one who has believed into Christ.

Of course it was Abraham the father of faith who in Genesis 18 challenged God concerning His righteous ways.

" Far be it from You to do such a thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You!

Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ?" (Genesis 18:25)

This was Abraham inquiring with God about the soon to occur judgment of Sodom and Gamorrah. Abraham knew that his nephew Lot and his family were believers yet mixed up in the sinful city inadvertently.


We see also that David effectively prayed over and over again in Psalm 119 that God would be true "according to Your word".

He held up God's promises to God's face and reminded Him of the word which He had caused all His servants to hope in.

In this same spirit I said that He is "faithful AND RIGHTEOUS" to forgive us our sins in the name of Christ when we confess them. In this spirit I said that the Judge of all the earth would do justly who has JUDGED the believer's sins in Jesus on Calvary.

We need confession and the cleansing blood of Christ to maintain flowing fellowship once the indwelling Spirit of Christ has taken abode.

The Precious Blood of Christ Only three minutes

YouTube

Originally posted by menace71
I think people ( Christians ) forget God is sovereign He can do as He chooses

Manny

Yes He can. but He will not go against His word. He is faithful in all He has promised.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes He can. but He will not go against His word. He is faithful in all He has promised.

And here nicely put is one such promise to mankind as stated by Paul in the Dispensation of Grace:

.. the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV)

Those who do not OBEY Christ will be destroyed.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And here nicely put is one such promise to mankind as stated by Paul in the Dispensation of Grace:

.. the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire [b]taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the ...[text shortened]... of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV)

Those who do not OBEY Christ will be destroyed.[/b]

Nothing new there, he is addressing those who do not know Him. They do not obey the gospel.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Nothing new there, he is addressing those who do not know Him. They do not obey the gospel.

Well let take what the the Apostles say instead of guessing. Like you say ... scripture interprets scripture.

To KNOW HIM is not in the everyday usage of knowing of Him, or about Him, or hearing his name. It means following His commandments. John explains:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4 KJV)

There is no escaping it. Those who enter into the Kingdom of God are those who in the righteous judgment of God, has obeyed His Sons commandments. Those who dont obey the commandments of His Son will get eternal destruction.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well let take what the the Apostles say instead of guessing. Like you say ... scripture interprets scripture.

To KNOW HIM is not in the everyday usage of knowing of Him, or about Him, or hearing his name. It means following His commandments. John explains:

[i]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I k ...[text shortened]... ons commandments. Those who dont obey the commandments of His Son will get eternal destruction.

What is his first commandment? Receive him.
Acts 2:38
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Acts 16:29-32
Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
NKJV

Rom 10:7-12
"'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV