Originally posted by galveston75Sorry .. did not mean to sound "unclam"... 🙂
OK..calm down. I'm not understanding your question that's all. I'll look back and see what your saying. I just had surgery a few days ago and I'm on pain meds. I'll answer tomorrow when my head is clear. Thanks.
When you are ok we will resume.
As for the one question I asked .... I have heard just about every argument why the statement by Christ that only God can kill the soul in hell has a different meaning, and why the Rich man and Lazarus story does not imply that the soul lives on after the body dies. So the question is why would Christ need to use a false doctrine to illustrate his point?
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In Revelation 6 we read:
"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed." (Rev. 6:9-11)
1.) How could these "souls" speak if their being slain (v.9) and killed (v.11) rendered their souls annhilated ?
2.) Where were these "souls" resting (v.11) ?
3.) How could non-existence be resting ?
4.) These "souls" are told to rest yet a little while longer. If they are non-existent and have no awareness of the passage of time, how can they experience "yet a little while"?
5.) These "souls" cry out "How long, O Master". If they have been annhilated by being slain how is it that they are impatient ?
Originally posted by galveston75So G-75 what if the student does not agree with you? Or out thinks and wits you?
I'll try Rajj but as you know we as Witnessees are taught form our congregations to be teachers and that is a trait I've had most of my life. One thing that Jesus used in most of his teachings were to ask questions. This is to try and get the student to think and reason about a subject instead of the teacher being just a preacher.
MannY
Originally posted by galveston75Acts 3:23
I've noticed some discussions lately about the soul and what it is. According to the Bible, not mythes or religious beliefs, it is the fleshly body that humans and all living creatures have. It is something we start to grow at conception and that begins to perish at death.
Gen 1: 20 mentions the ocean and flying creatures as souls.
Gen 1: 24 speaks o ...[text shortened]...
Acts 3:23 confirms this.
Not one scripture in the Bible says the soul lives on after death.
'Everyone who does not listen to that prophet will be cut off from the people.'
I don't get it.
Originally posted by galveston75Still, when all christians agree on its interpretation, when the christian religion is unified according to the bible, then come back and tell me. Until then the interpretation of the bible is no more than guessings.
The scriptures say what the scriptures say. There are many more that confirms these scriptures. Again, no where in the Bible does it ever say the the soul lives on past death.
Originally posted by galveston75in that case how about you tell us what does live on after death? i propose the term "pink fluffy mojo"
The scriptures say what the scriptures say. There are many more that confirms these scriptures. Again, no where in the Bible does it ever say the the soul lives on past death.
Originally posted by Rajk999Thanks... Wasn't a good day yesterday.
Sorry .. did not mean to sound "unclam"... 🙂
When you are ok we will resume.
As for the one question I asked .... I have heard just about every argument why the statement by Christ that only God can kill the soul in hell has a different meaning, and why the Rich man and Lazarus story does not imply that the soul lives on after the body dies. So the question is why would Christ need to use a false doctrine to illustrate his point?
Teachers and students of comparative religions have in some cases suggested that in giving this illustration, Jesus drew upon the ancient rabbinic concept and teaching regarding the underworld.
But Josephus furnishes the following information regarding the then-current view of the pharisees in this regard: " They believe the souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot for evil souls, while the good souls recieve an easy passage to a new life." ( Jewish Antiquities, XVIII )
However Jesus flatly rejected false teachings, including those of the pharisees.
Hence it would have been inconsistant for him to frame his illustration of the Rich man and Lazarus according to the outlines of the false Rabinnic concept of the underworld.
Consequently it must be concluded that Jesus had in mind the fullfillment of the illustration and framed it's details and movement in harmony with the facts of the fullfillment rather than according to any unscriptural teaching.
The context and the wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account.
Originally posted by ZahlanziPs 146:4 says: His spirit goes out " Not Soul" and he goes back to the ground and in that day his thoughts do perish."
in that case how about you tell us what does live on after death? i propose the term "pink fluffy mojo"
So the spirit or the life force "the force of life that was breathed into Adam that we all have" goes back to God.
Ecl 9:5'6 says "the dead are conscience of nothing at all and that they have no other feelings or emotions."
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Originally posted by galveston75Lol .. is that your response? You have to be kidding me. Please Galveston dont insult people with that meaninglesss JW propaganda. Say something that makes sense.
Thanks... Wasn't a good day yesterday.
Teachers and students of comparative religions have in some cases suggested that in giving this illustration, Jesus drew upon the ancient rabbinic concept and teaching regarding the underworld.
But Josephus furnishes the following information regarding the then-current view of the pharisees in this regard: " wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account.
OK .. I will ask a simpler question. Kindly show where Christ rejected the belief by the Phariseees that "...souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot for evil souls, while the good souls recieve an easy passage to a new life.."
If you cant answer the question then please say so rather then post stuff that makes no sense.
Originally posted by Rajk999Ok then if Jesus believed in an after life for souls as the Pharisees believed, then why did he resurrect Lazarus? Why not leave him where he was, maybe in heaven?
Lol .. is that your response? You have to be kidding me. Please Galveston dont insult people with that meaninglesss JW propaganda. Say something that makes sense.
OK .. I will ask a simpler question. Kindly show where Christ rejected the belief by the Phariseees that [i]"...souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments unde ...[text shortened]... If you cant answer the question then please say so rather then post stuff that makes no sense.
If Lazarus was alive in another place, why didn't he tell anyone about it?
You may not think so but this answers your question...
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Originally posted by galveston75What a nonsensical argument. Christ said that body and soul are separate in Matt 10. He gave an illustration in Luke 16 - the Rich man and Lazarus of what happens after death... the soul of the righteous goes one place and the soul of the evil goes elsewhere. Rev mentions souls (see Jaywill's post) waiting, speaking etc.
Ok then if Jesus believed in an after life for souls as the Pharisees believed, then why did he resurrect Lazarus? Why not leave him where he was, maybe in heaven?
If Lazarus was alive in another place, why didn't he tell anyone about it?
You may not think so but this answers your question...
Christ clearly did not reject the Pharisee's doctrine he actually endorsed it.
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Originally posted by galveston75I would like to your replies to my questions from Revelation 6:9-11 above.
Thanks... Wasn't a good day yesterday.
Teachers and students of comparative religions have in some cases suggested that in giving this illustration, Jesus drew upon the ancient rabbinic concept and teaching regarding the underworld.
But Josephus furnishes the following information regarding the then-current view of the pharisees in this regard: " wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account.
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"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed." (Rev. 6:9-11)
1.) How could these "souls" speak if their being slain (v.9) and killed (v.11) rendered their souls annhilated ?
2.) Where were these "souls" resting (v.11) ?
3.) How could non-existence be resting ?
4.) These "souls" are told to rest yet a little while longer. If they are non-existent and have no awareness of the passage of time, how can they experience "yet a little while"?
5.) These "souls" cry out "How long, O Master". If they have been annhilated by being slain how is it that they are impatient ?
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Originally posted by jaywillHow do you explain this scripture then? Gen 4:10. Is this saying that the blood is alive and literally crying out? I would think since the bible in many verses says the soul dies at death and does not think or have a conscienceness, then the scrptures you are quoting are not to be taking literally as this scriptures states that ones blood is crying out. It can't do that.
I would like to your replies to my questions from [b]Revelation 6:9-11 above.
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"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
And they cried out with a loud voice, sayi ...[text shortened]... it that they are impatient ?
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Never in any quote by Jesus does he say that the soul lives on anywhere and is alive. He uses many paribles and wisdom should help you see those as what they are..