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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobie...or to paraphrase the story another way, an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god, despite foreseeing every move of his feeble, weak-willed, ignorant and covetous creature called man, went ahead and created him in a universe such that an immense amount of suffering would ensue. For what? I challenge any theist to meaningfully state god's purpose in doing this. Personally I don't buy the idea that moral autonomy and free will are worth exchanging eternal bliss for.
No chance, the story of humanity is one of a paradise lost because of humanity's insistence of moral independence from God, a right, which although exercised, has produced a world with the semblance of normality, but a charade of what it could be.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Lord SharkGod created man out of love. But if everyone views that as you do, we that are parents should never produce offspring. We hope they will all make the right decisions in life but most don't. So should we not have children because of fears of mistake they might make?
...or to paraphrase the story another way, an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god, despite foreseeing every move of his feeble, weak-willed, ignorant and covetous creature called man, went ahead and created him in a universe such that an immense amount of suffering would ensue. For what? I challenge any theist to meaningfully state god's purpose ...[text shortened]... I don't buy the idea that moral autonomy and free will are worth exchanging eternal bliss for.
Of course the mistakes man has made hurts God just as mistakes our children make hurts us. So should we feel that we should not have produced them? I think not...
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75I knew going in that I was ill-equipped and exceedingly ignorant - are you saying that god is the same? Why did we have to draw a trainee? Too bad he didn't have some parents to help out - that's what most of us need.
So should we not have children because of fears of mistake they might make?
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by TerrierJackNo he knew exactly what he was doing. But he did not create robots even though he could have. Again would we want our children to be such a thing as a robot that was preprogramed to do only what we would want? (Well, maybe..Lol)
I knew going in that I was ill-equipped and exceedingly ignorant - are you saying that god is the same? Why did we have to draw a trainee? Too bad he didn't have some parents to help out - that's what most of us need.
But really think about it and see things from his eyes and what it would have meant if he had.
Should he not have created the angels? After all it was one of them, who because of selfishness caused himself to become Satan, who tempted Eve to eat of the tree.
The point is we can't blame God because of others decisions.
23 Jun 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75For starters, most parents don't slap a death sentence on their offspring just because they do one morally bad thing.
God created man out of love. But if everyone views that as you do, we that are parents should never produce offspring. We hope they will all make the right decisions in life but most don't. So should we not have children because of fears of mistake they might make?
Of course the mistakes man has made hurts God just as mistakes our children make hurts us. So should we feel that we should not have produced them? I think not...
Most human parents know in advance that their children will not be perfect, and do not resort to outlandishly exaggerated punishments when the kids do go wrong. When they do, we tend to call them 'abusive'. When God does it, his followers call it 'justice'.
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75Look at what we have here! God's own little explainer! No mystery too deep, no action too convoluted, no secrets that cannot be revealed! A humble human being capable of looking thru the eyes of god! A wonder of the modern world to take their place beside the bat-boy!
No he knew exactly what he was doing. But he did not create robots even though he could have. Again would we want our children to be such a thing as a robot that was preprogramed to do only what we would want? (Well, maybe..Lol)
But really think about it and see things from his eyes and what it would have meant if he had.
Should he not have created ...[text shortened]... tempted Eve to eat of the tree.
The point is we can't blame God because of others decisions.
Take a deep breath, people are beginning to point your way and whisper.
23 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Lord SharkTo see all of life is nothing but suffering... all bad and no good, only emphasizes your separation from God. Get a grip man. If life is that bad, then do something about it besides blame the Creator who gave you every chance to be all you can be. It's not God's fault that you find yourself spiraling downward in a swirl of negativity.
...or to paraphrase the story another way, an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god, despite foreseeing every move of his feeble, weak-willed, ignorant and covetous creature called man, went ahead and created him in a universe such that an immense amount of suffering would ensue. For what? I challenge any theist to meaningfully state god's purpose ...[text shortened]... I don't buy the idea that moral autonomy and free will are worth exchanging eternal bliss for.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by SwissGambitFor starters, most parents don't slap a death sentence on their offspring just because they do one morally bad thing.
For starters, most parents don't slap a death sentence on their offspring just because they do one morally bad thing.
Human beings do that but God sure doesn't. For starters.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by SwissGambitTwo major differances though. Adam and Eve were perfect and they were warned that they would die if they disobeyed. They had no inherited sin as we do so the decision was completely their own. But why did God even put the tree there for them to be tempted by? Did he have the right to do that?
For starters, most parents don't slap a death sentence on their offspring just because they do one morally bad thing.
Most human parents know in advance that their children will not be perfect, and do not resort to outlandishly exaggerated punishments when the kids do go wrong. When they do, we tend to call them 'abusive'. When God does it, his followers call it 'justice'.
Do we as parents not have the right to demand certian obediance from our children? But why the death penalty for Adam and Eve?
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75I could never understand the need for people to believe and convince others about God's attributes which are vauge or not clear in the Bible. Or even those which are stated but somehow the facts of the Bible need to be re-interpreted for us to understand it. Eg .. God is love, is clearly not a statement that people can appreciate given the bloody /violent nature of some of His instructions to the Jews.
Does God cause suffering?
There is no statement in the Bible about whether or not God causes suffering. So first maybe you should define what you mean by God causing suffering. But if we were to go simply by the examples in the Bible, the answer is yes. If God instructed Joshua to kill every man, woman and child in a village, then we can reasonably assume that there was some suffering caused before all were dead. Hence God caused the suffering of those people.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75Is there some part of the Bible that says Adam and Eve were perfect?
Two major differances though. Adam and Eve were perfect and they were warned that they would die if they disobeyed. They had no inherited sin as we do so the decision was completely their own. But why did God even put the tree there for them to be tempted by? Did he have the right to do that?
Do we as parents not have the right to demand certian obediance from our children? But why the death penalty for Adam and Eve?