Originally posted by twhiteheadYou've missed the point by trying to apply the analogy too far.
So where are the consequences for you taking it up to 95?
I can understand you deliberately applying restrictive consequences to them for their own good. But would you ever punish them in a way that does not achieve that end? Would you punish them merely as retribution?
I am a grown ass man, with a direct link to the ebb and flow of consequences with no one in between.
My sons required a buffer once they received a measure of freedom.
One of them is on his own now, and any restrictions previously applied are now removed.
The other is soon to be in that same position, and will receive that same severing of protection.
The consequences of man's failure to speak and do the truth are so far removed from retribution, as to not even be part of the same conversation.
When man goes to hell, it is not because God is mad at him.
He goes to hell because he refuses to acknowledge God as God, God as good.
Either man is the liar or God is.
Can't have it both ways.
Originally posted by Rajk999It is a license to sin only for those who suffer from arrested moral development, stuck at the stage of reward and punishment delivered by an external agent. The morally mature reason to refrain from doing evil is that it is evil, not because one will otherwise be punished.
Here we go again. .. the licence to sin principle.
Very nice.
We internalize the agency of reward and punishment by modeling ourselves after the external agent, in the case of Christians, we model ourselves after Christ. This can even be done without being a theist. This basis (that in brief is "WWJD" ) is not terminated by being forgiven.
For this reason the debate that has taken over this thread is moot.
Originally posted by JS357Well, the trouble of not having a standard to model after or look at is,
It is a license to sin only for those who suffer from arrested moral development, stuck at the stage of reward and punishment delivered by an external agent. The morally mature reason to refrain from doing evil is that it is evil, not because one will otherwise be punished.
We internalize the agency of reward and punishment by modeling ourselves after the ...[text shortened]... inated by being forgiven.
For this reason the debate that has taken over this thread is moot.
without one who is to say what is and is not evil? You cannot know you
are upside down without knowing what is right side up! The punishment
and reward, or stick and carrot have been around a long time.
Kelly
Originally posted by JS357Well your point is well taken ie that there are some Christians who suffer from arrested moral development, and they use the saving grace of Christ as a licence to sin. Thanks for that.
It is a license to sin only for those who suffer from arrested moral development, stuck at the stage of reward and punishment delivered by an external agent. The morally mature reason to refrain from doing evil is that it is evil, not because one will otherwise be punished.
We internalize the agency of reward and punishment by modeling ourselves after the ...[text shortened]... inated by being forgiven.
For this reason the debate that has taken over this thread is moot.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI get your point. There are dire consequences for breaking the 'freedom of the road' rules. That freedom comes with conditions and a price tag applies to just about everything. Break the rules and there are consequences.
I taught my sons how to drive (the girls still a little bit too young yet), then sent them to the required classes for licensing in our state.
Once they passed their tests and were given a driver's license, I gave them a car to drive.
The car they drive has a speedometer which indicates the speed of their forward movements from zero to 140 MPH--- althoug ...[text shortened]... r physics or new information will step in with either deadly or merely restrictive consequences.
By accepting Christ there is a freedom from the law and lengthy moral guidelines of Moses. However that was replaced by the law of Christ which can be summarised by 'Love God and your neighbour as yourself"
Paul said:
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Galatians 5:13-14 KJV)
Yes you have freedom in Christ, but NO you cannot use that liberty in Christ to sin.
There are several passages that describe the consequences of accepting Christ and tasting the good things to come and thereafter falling away. So be warned.
Originally posted by twhiteheadOther than giving you credit for using English words and syntax, your words here have literally nothing to do with the conversation up to this point.
No, I just showed that the analogy explained nothing and was not relevant to the situation. In other words, you had no point.
You didn't challenge the analogy, nor did you demonstrate its irrelevance.
You only demonstrated that you didn't understand it, so I will explain it in even simpler terms than used before.
Just because the car can exceed the speeds for which it was intended doesn't mean one ought to drive at those speeds.
Conversely, just because all sins have been forgiven doesn't mean one ought to sin unabated.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAnd the reasons you gave for not speeding were twofold:
Just because the car can exceed the speeds for which it was intended doesn't mean one ought to drive at those speeds.
Conversely, just because all sins have been forgiven doesn't mean one ought to sin unabated.
1. Fear of punishment by a parent.
2. Fear of having an accident.
What are the reasons for not sinning?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIf one were to drive like a jackass there will be dire and fatal consequences. Likewise Christ, Paul, Peter, James, John all warned about the consequences of unabated sin. There is no eternal life for those CHrist has found to be guilty of unabated sin.
.. just because all sins have been forgiven doesn't mean one ought to sin unabated.
Originally posted by Rajk999You are probably meaning me. I never said grace was a license to sin. In fact I don't think anyone here ever implied that. Besides you don't need a license to sin, we do that very well without a license.
Well your point is well taken ie that there are some Christians who suffer from arrested moral development, and they use the saving grace of Christ as a licence to sin. Thanks for that.
Your whole concept is strict adherence to law(words of Christ) or whatever tag you choose to label it.
My whole point is that when a person is genuinely born again, regenerated, saved, he/she is changed on the inside. They receive a new nature.
This new nature (spirit) has to become dominant in the mind as well. That is why the bible compels us to renew our minds according to the word of God.
A truly saved person does not want to sin. If a person wants to sin, then I would question whether he is born again to start with.
What you preach is changing the outside by observing rules and regulations, while what the bible teaches is God changing you from the inside out, which over time, study and obedience will transform a person to the calling Christ called us to.
You should read more than just the gospels. Spend some time in the epistles, it will serve you well.
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-Removed-What about the guy that shot to death a bunch of kindergarden children and when the police came, he shot himself to death so he would get away without punishment? But we have a God of justice that will make sure he gets plenty of punishment in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
Hitler had millions of Jews burned to death in furnaces. Hitler killed himself to avoid punishment. I bet the Jews are glad they have a God of Justice that will punish those that burned them in fire. I would think those Jews would think the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where those that did those evil things to them would be tormented forever, a fitting revenge, if God is really a God of Justice for his people.