Originally posted by robbie carrobieProve it.
beetle this is incredibly interesting! if i understand you correctly then it seems, according to Aristotle that reason is not the product itself, but rather the catalyst for producing right action or virtue. however i myself find this quite erroneous, because as has been shown at Nuremberg and elsewhere, reason is not above the moral judgment of cons ...[text shortened]... reed and finds itself embodied in the universal human conscience, god given and divine!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHey, take it easy ye rrrobbie🙂
beetle this is incredibly interesting! if i understand you correctly then it seems, according to Aristotle that reason is not the product itself, but rather the catalyst for producing right action or virtue. however i myself find this quite erroneous, because as has been shown at Nuremberg and elsewhere, reason is not above the moral judgment of cons ...[text shortened]... reed and finds itself embodied in the universal human conscience, god given and divine!
Socrates (and Aristotle and Plato and everybody but the Sophists!) would point out asap that the "reasoning" of the Nazis is not reasoning at all, but it is just a twisted excuse; in addition, the "reasoning" regarding the so called economical benefits due to the status of slavery is not "reasoning" at all but merely a twisted excuse;
Regarding your second argument, you appear to forget that the whole thing has to do with the constant evaluation of one's nature and with the fact that the Virtue as we mean it over here is a quality invented by the Human in order to help him attain an even better and decent life in a specific society, ie "ef zein", and also in order to make him understand what he knows and what he ignores. For, whithout this knowledge, the Human is lost in an ocean of comfusion.
So no "god" is required, for the (deriving from the political virtues) virtues like unselfishness, modesty, kindness, generosity, altruism, plus the genuine political virtue of our respect of the law, etc., all of them they are man made inventions and not virtues which they were breathed into the Human by supernatural existence or existences;
What is your opinion then, my trustee feer? 🙂
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Originally posted by black beetlewhat is this idle talk and rebellion, my dear friends not only can i prove it, but afterwards you will join me in a celebration and we shall praise God in his wisdom for having endowed us mere mortals with divine qualities, just give me a little time to formulate my thoughts and all shall be revealed for your enlightenment and encouragement, have no fear, i must first journey to olympus for there are one or two thoughts that need confirmation - regards Robbie!
Hey sonny dude, he obviously cannot🙂
Originally posted by black beetleoh beetle you faithless one! guided by naught but human wisdom and noble sentiments, are we gods, able for ourselves to distinguish between right and wrong? or are we not mortal, flesh and blood, thrown here and there, life but a series of coincidences, a season of spring summer autumn and winter, the story so far my friend is hello and goodbye, like a bird we enter the feasting hall, sing and away we fly! rejoice with the wife of your youth my friend, the scriptures tell, be in ecstasy with her constantly, for what is a mans portion under the sun, but to eat and drink and rejoice and see good for his hard work! i must try to formulate some reasoning, worthy of your consideration, but the task is not easy, the path dimly lit, for one error either side of the precipice and its check mate, but never the less we may take courage, a wee dram of the spirit of water as the ancient Gaels called it and our hearts are calmed and our thought process reflective, i will be with you anon my friend!
Hey sonny dude, he obviously cannot🙂
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow can ye forrmuliit yer spirituality withoot it nob'l Glenlivet spirrrit?
what is this idle talk and rebellion, my dear friends not only can i prove it, but afterwards you will join me in a celebration and we shall praise God in his wisdom for having endowed us mere mortals with divine qualities, just give me a little time to formulate my thoughts and all shall be revealed for your enlightenment and encouragement, have no ...[text shortened]... st journey to olympus for there are one or two thoughts that need confirmation - regards Robbie!
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh robbie,
oh beetle you faithless one! guided by naught but human wisdom and noble sentiments, are we gods, able for ourselves to distinguish between right and wrong? or are we not mortal, flesh and blood, thrown here and there, life but a series of coincidences, a season of spring summer autumn and winter, the story so far my friend is hello and goodbye, like ...[text shortened]... and our hearts are calmed and our thought process reflective, i will be with you anon my friend!
this answer of yours seems to this miserable atheist accurate, so I have to repeat with joy my unnoticed first reply to you regarding your question about morality as you posed it in relation with the Nuremberg issue:
"I keep myself fully responsible for my actions. I am aware of the fact that I 'm a black beetle on the surface of a tree that goes all the way down in the river to them thunderin falls. I am free to do what I want on my precious beloved tree till I 'll be free at last"
Yes! We are able to distinguich between the one that is real and the one that is not! We are able to distinguich between the one we know and the one that we know not, just like the way the fasty rabbit knows that he has to run for his life when a hawk is after him and that he has to eat when he is saved and relaxed in front of a crounchy juicy carrot.
But we emerged by far stronger than him rabbit into our environment, an environment which we transformed bit by bit with our own ability and our lust for Piece and for Love and for Hatred and for War, and many times all this seems so complicated!
Somehow we are mortal, flesh and blood, thrown here and there whilst anythin goes, yet immortals we remain for we rule the world (our precious tree, that is) mounted on the shoulders of them giants which they promote Humanity through Knowledge and Science. And we will keep up till we end up falling right into them falls.
My trustee feer, nothing holy😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo your argument is, because we are not gods, that proves that god must exist? Not following that one. The thing is, all you religious folk have is words, words on paper, words in your heads, words you speak. A real god, being omnicient, would easily be able to give us ten commandments to each one of us, all 6 billion alive and all the trillion or so who have ever lived, one bigasss voice going, ok folks, you called for it, here it is: These ten, best not break....
oh beetle you faithless one! guided by naught but human wisdom and noble sentiments, are we gods, able for ourselves to distinguish between right and wrong? or are we not mortal, flesh and blood, thrown here and there, life but a series of coincidences, a season of spring summer autumn and winter, the story so far my friend is hello and goodbye, like ...[text shortened]... and our hearts are calmed and our thought process reflective, i will be with you anon my friend!
Not hearing that and I can't help but notice there are thousands of religions and a lot of them diametrically opposed to the point of war and killing, I put it to you there would be no god who would set up such a diabolically evil system, where one religion says only you and you and you go to 'heaven' (whatever that is) but the lord wants you and you and you way over there to go to hell, burn forever, because your god WANTS it that way. Too many things going off in opposite directions for a god to have put it together, therefore, if there is a god, it is one of total hands off, if a giant asteroid hits the earth and wipes out all of mankind in one day, tough luck guys. If we destroy the atmosphere and the world either dries up or freezes, sooo sorry folks, but hey, you did it to yourselves, this god might say to the last person alive...So show me otherwise.
Originally posted by sonhouseHey sonhouse pal,
So your argument is, because we are not gods, that proves that god must exist? Not following that one. The thing is, all you religious folk have is words, words on paper, words in your heads, words you speak. A real god, being omnicient, would easily be able to give us ten commandments to each one of us, all 6 billion alive and all the trillion or so who ha ...[text shortened]... you did it to yourselves, this god might say to the last person alive...So show me otherwise.
Each one of all these religions is the result of the evolution of the fixed expression of the devastation of the Human before Death together with the fixed expression of the admiration of the Human before Life, mixed with low awareness of the Science, of the Knowlegde and of the real understanding of the Human nature.
The fact that some religious principals are spirited is a further proof of the dynamics and the level of the spiritualism of the individual.
Created by smart and, in some cases, wise individuals -but anyway by humans-, each religion in order to expand has different but anyway human inspired doctrines aiming to conquer the attention of the society of their time.
And, somehow, all of them man made hypothesies -the religions-, they became through the social process and due time as twisted and turned as their interpretators and their delegates.
"God", what an invention😵
Originally posted by black beetleWhat he said🙂
Hey sonhouse pal,
Each one of all these religions is the result of the evolution of the fixed expression of the devastation of the Human before Death together with the fixed expression of the admiration of the Human before Life, mixed with low awareness of the Science, of the Knowlegde and of the real understanding of the Human nature.
The fact that ...[text shortened]... twisted and turned as their interpretators and their delegates.
"God", what an invention😵
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Originally posted by black beetlewait i haven't even begun my argument yet, i need to go to work, so it may be some time, suffice to say that beetle has in effect refuted his own assertion that reason and knowledge and science are the handmaidens of morality and virtue, for taking his analogy and examining it, we must ask ourselves who was it that put instinctive wisdom into the little bunny rabbit so that when the eagle flies overhead he senses the danger and knows to flee? the rabbit does not reason does he beetle my illustrious friend, no no, he knows through instinctive wisdom that it is dangerous to hang around, and when one examines the animal kingdom one can perceive instinctive wisdom in all sorts of creatures from ants, to beavers, to bees and eagles and rabbits! now how did these animals come to be in possession of such wisdom, (for we perceive that wisdom is the application of knowledge to produce a certain desired result), he did not read it, he was not taught it, it was not the product of reason, nor of knowledge and science, no my dear friends it was innately there all the time and therefore we must conclude that he was born with it! it is not a great leap of the imagination to apply this to human, many of whom likewise lack knowledge and science but yet can display such noble attributes such as love, justice and wisdom! anyhow i need to go to work, i work outside, im tired, its freezing, my work is hard and i have a family to feed - regards Robbie.
Hey sonhouse pal,
Each one of all these religions is the result of the evolution of the fixed expression of the devastation of the Human before Death together with the fixed expression of the admiration of the Human before Life, mixed with low awareness of the Science, of the Knowlegde and of the real understanding of the Human nature.
The fact that ...[text shortened]... twisted and turned as their interpretators and their delegates.
"God", what an invention😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI believe they call that 'evolution'. No god needed for that. BTW, humans don't even know for sure we are the exhalted ones on the planet, that is to say, the pinnacle of creation like religious types like to think. For instance, we now know Dolphins, Porpose, Whales, all have incredible languages, that we cannot yet even begin to decipher. We have no way of knowing for sure we are their intellectual superior.
wait i haven't even begun my argument yet, i need to go to work, so it may be some time, suffice to say that beetle has in effect refuted his own assertion that reason and knowledge and science are the handmaidens of morality and virtue, for taking his analogy and examining it, we must ask ourselves who was it that put instinctive wisdom into the lit ...[text shortened]... outside, im tired, its freezing, my work is hard and i have a family to feed - regards Robbie.
So what if they can't make fire, they might even contemplate the stars and their place in it, that cannot be ruled out and would puncture the sweet bubble of our presumed god given superiority, instead just putting us up with other animals on the same intelligence level.
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Originally posted by sonhouselol, yeah, call it what you will, im not buying it, and unless you can provide evidence to the contrary that the process of evolution was fundamental in producing wisdom then i think you should refrain from trying to assert that it is, its nothing more than a hypothesis, cannot be proven, is full of contradiction and has no basis in reason nor can it claim to be scientific, and the evidence against it is overwhelming to say the least, see the fossil record, see experiments with mutations, see attempts to create amino acids, see the so called transmigration of species, see the complexity of dna, see mathematical probability etc etc. so i do not buy it my friend, no siree!
I believe they call that 'evolution'. No god needed for that. BTW, humans don't even know for sure we are the exhalted ones on the planet, that is to say, the pinnacle of creation like religious types like to think. For instance, we now know Dolphins, Porpose, Whales, all have incredible languages, that we cannot yet even begin to decipher. We have no way o n superiority, instead just putting us up with other animals on the same intelligence level.
and actually i do not believe that we are the pinnacle of creation, that is an assumption on your part! pinnacle, superiority, these are all your words not mine, so please keep your arguments objective for you may be arguing for something that i do not accept myself.
is there any proof for your assertion that animals can contemplate their existence, do they have a knowledge of the past, are conscious of the present and can contemplate the future like we humans can? if so where is this evidence, for as far as i can discern its based not of knowledge but on ignorance, for you state that the fact that we don't know means that it must be? its a presumption my friend and unless you have knowledge or evidence to the contrary then just as you have asked me for evidence then i must ask you for the same evidence, for it seems to me to be very plain and simple that animals are wise, instinctively, not through the process of reasoning and contemplation, evidence for which is available!
and please do not refer to me as a religious type, you know nothing, zero, zilcho, center of a doughnut about my religious convictions which bear absolutely no resemblance to any others on this forum, dig ya'll - regards robbie!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo prob robbie dude, go to work and take your sweet time!
wait i haven't even begun my argument yet, i need to go to work, so it may be some time, suffice to say that beetle has in effect refuted his own assertion that reason and knowledge and science are the handmaidens of morality and virtue, for taking his analogy and examining it, we must ask ourselves who was it that put instinctive wisdom into the lit ...[text shortened]... outside, im tired, its freezing, my work is hard and i have a family to feed - regards Robbie.
The tale goes like this: you may be as slippery as an eel my trustee feer, but as a matter of fact the nature of the rabbit is the agent that unables him to run whilst the nature of the Human unables him to evaluate!
You see, once upon a time the Human was not able to evaluate well. But when he understood that he lives better when he gets together with other human beings (and, therefore, when he actually started to Create His own enviroment within the whole Enviroment of the planet in order to live better, thus prevailing over the other species, rabbits and all included), soon he realised that he had to promote rules in order to establish the proper conditions which are required for the prosperity of his clan; this is the reason why the Human created the concept of the Law for his everyday life.
Soon, later on, the Human became the master of the planet, and then his greatest enemy was the Other Human. At that phase he realised that he needs strength in order to prevail -this means War, for War is by far an easier task than the task of the universal consensus.
So the Chief of the clan exchanged handshakes with the Priest who invented the religion whilst both of them were hearing with satisfaction the Warlord of the clan shouting:
-- "We are the chosen against them unbelievers, let's make some haggis out of them coz the Priest said that this is the will of Our God, and in addition we 'll keep their land and cattles in the name of our Chief, and we 'll have some fun with them infidel lassies coz we are obliged to give something to you too. Afraid not and enjoy your death, for you will end up at the Paradise and all"...
And, what a miracle, the Divine Plan was well on track.
BTW this is the reason why the ancient religions are quite blood thirsty whilst the more recent are less ...blood thirsty. Even today, Sharia is considered "law" by some religionist (atheists included, twhitehead pal) fanatics.
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