Originally posted by Bosse de NageWell, that's very candid. Were you more interested in 'beating' me than establishing the truth?
Well, that's very candid. Were you more interested in 'beating' me than establishing the truth?
The patriarchal cultures still have the same attitudes towards women that once prevailed in the West but supposedly don't anymore (see the mediaeval ballad 'Bruton Town' for an old English honour killing); they're stuck with a misogynistic code that value ...[text shortened]... force; coincidence?
Death by a thousand cuts hasn't been executed in about a century.
That is the point!!!
Most of what is being said in this site is from the same nature, "fraud"
It is more more important for some to attach Islam than to admit the truth.
I thank you my friend for your contribution to this thread!!!
Originally posted by ahosyneyBull's eye, ahosyney!
[b]Well, that's very candid. Were you more interested in 'beating' me than establishing the truth?
That is the point!!!
Most of what is being said in this site is from the same nature, "fraud"
It is more more important for some to attach Islam than to admit the truth.
I thank you my friend for your contribution to this thread!!![/b]
But is this all you have to say? Or you keep up researching the facts I mentioned regarding the Jyllands-Posten issue and the ...spirited reaction of the religionist imams and Muslims, along with the superb spiritualism of the dearest Mohammed Bouyeri?
As usually, it seems that the essence of this thread has to do more with the religionism -with the appaling "Ultimate Truth", which it must be spread by any means and it is taken too seriously by them insufferable religionist dolts regardless their religion and their denomination. They love more their religion than the people which they should love.
The same crapola all the time! "...your scriptures are false, my scriptures are devine"... "...your god stinks, my god is the One God"... "...you are an infidel, I have to get you back in track -my Track"... Unfortunately once the story starts the circle remains unbroken, violence brings up more violence.
The fact is that all of them three Abrahamic religions and their "laws" are barbaric, based at the concept "eye for eye and tooth for tooth". And, nowdays, Sharia is by far the most disgusting system -so disgusting that I have to fight hard against myself in order to contain my rage against the religionists that they try to proove that it is accurate and just. Whenever I have to pick "religion" or common sens I will always pick the latter. And if I had to save from the fire the "holy scriptures" of all the religions of the world or a disabled kid, I would save the kid.
So robbie, what Jesus would say over this?
Ahosyney, what the Prophet would say over this?
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Originally posted by black beetleactually beetle you are highlighting a point that i made earlier, because of this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth concept in both judaism and borrowed by Islam, as so much of this faith is, we have the basis for retribution which escalates itself almost in perpetuity, thus we have 'honour killings', in retribution, family feuds in retribution, and the like, until there is forgiveness, a concept which is alien because of the aforementioned concept it will continue in perpetuity, yes violence begets violence, no question about it! also good is the point you make with regard to humanity and religion, and that if ones religion does not make one more humane, more forgiving, more loving, more tolerant, then what is its point? yes we have these things in essence naturally, of which we have already spoken of, but when a religion suppresses them or supersedes them, then one surely has the right to call into question its validity as a source of good.
As usually, it seems that the essence of this thread has to do more with the religionism -with the appaling "Ultimate Truth", which it must be spread by any means and it is taken too seriously by them insufferable religionist dolts regardless their religion and their denomination. They love more their religion than the people which they should love.
what Jesus would say over this?
Ahosyney, what the Prophet would say over this?
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Originally posted by ahosyneyno i quite clearly stated to Bosse that this was not my intention and that the truth is far more potent than a mere egotistical attempt to win an argument, so lets have it please, for as far as i can discern no one has made any attempt to explain why there are so many references to violence against women, against non believers against those who change from Islam to another way of thinking in the Koran, therefore if you are really interested in establishing truth as you profess, then please explain why this is the case, for all , as far as i can discern that has been established is that honor killings while not exclusively an Islamic occurrence, seem to be a product of culture rather than religion, which is all very well but it does not negate any of the other points raised.
[b]Well, that's very candid. Were you more interested in 'beating' me than establishing the truth?
That is the point!!!
Most of what is being said in this site is from the same nature, "fraud"
It is more more important for some to attach Islam than to admit the truth.
I thank you my friend for your contribution to this thread!!![/b]
'The practice is common in Pakistan where police believe that up to 4,000 people, mostly women, have died in brutal honour killings in the four years between 2000 and 2004. Hundreds of women are raped or killed there each year in so-called honour attacks for behaviour including extramarital affairs or marriage without a family's consent.
In a recent case (June 2005), Jali Ahmed set fire to his sleeping wife and daughter and burned them to death in an honour killing. The 20-year-old girl was killed for having had an affair and her mother for not doing enough to discourage her daughter.
In another harrowing case, a Pakistani widow and her two daughters were beaten and forced to parade naked through a market after her son allegedly had an affair with another man's wife.
And in June 2002, a 30-year-old woman claimed she was gang raped on the orders of a tribal council to atone for her brother's alleged affair with a member of a powerful rival clan. Mukhtar Mai's family said the charge against her 12-year-old brother, Shakoor, was fabricated.''
lies, violence, deceit, murder, rape, sodomy, degradation, injustice, brutality, inhumanity, child killing - thankyou Pakistan, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
source http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_4.shtml
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAlthough both Judaism and Islam do more or less authorize the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" justice concept they are hardly the originators of the concept. An understanding of justice and the concepts of revenge / punishment are more or less universal in all societies. I think you have totally failed to show any real connection between 'honor killings' and the religion of Islam.
actually beetle you are highlighting a point that i made earlier, because of this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth concept in both judaism and borrowed by Islam, as so much of this faith is, we have the basis for retribution which escalates itself almost in perpetuity, thus we 'honour killings', in retribution, family feuds in retribution, and the ...[text shortened]... d concept it will continue in perpetuity, yes violence begets violence, no question about it!
also good is the point you make with regard to humanity and religion, and that if ones religion does not make one more humane, more forgiving, more loving, more tolerant, then what is its point?
If you follow a religion in order to have a point then I would be surprised. Most people claim their beliefs are factual and worship God for various reasons including the belief that he deserves worship or in order to get a reward for worshiping him, but having a point is almost never part of the equation.
yes we have these things in essence naturally, of which we have already spoken of, but when a religion
suppresses them or supersedes them, then one surely has the right to call into question its validity as a source of good.
Yet what you are trying to do is claim Islam is a source of Bad.
And when someone like you is clearly dishonest in their methods of criticizing a religion that you clearly have personal reasons for hating one starts to question whether all your talk of forgiveness in your religion is genuine. You don't even match up to the 'eye for an eye' standard in that you wont grant Islam the same leeway you are ready to grant the Jews.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadsee above, its has already been established that its an eastern phenomena, perhaps even global, but certainly common in Islamic nations - thankyou.
Although both Judaism and Islam do more or less authorize the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" justice concept they are hardly the originators of the concept. An understanding of justice and the concepts of revenge / punishment are more or less universal in all societies. I think you have totally failed to show any real connection between 'honor killin e' standard in that you wont grant Islam the same leeway you are ready to grant the Jews.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadbut having a point is almost never part of the equation. -is this your own opinion or have you gleaned it from someone else? what are you trying to say? i am sorry but i do not understand this statement, for if a religion does not benefit the recipient in enhancing, i would say god given qualities, 'love , justice, wisdom etc etc', you do not need to agree, i understand, then what is it but a broken mirror which gives a distorted impression! for i hold that every human has these attributes from birth, some suppress them, some have them superseded, some deny or ignore them, who can say? but what is the point of religion if not to make these qualities more manifest, its astounding that you have never considered this!
Although both Judaism and Islam do more or less authorize the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" justice concept they are hardly the originators of the concept. An understanding of justice and the concepts of revenge / punishment are more or less universal in all societies. I think you have totally failed to show any real connection between 'honor killin e' standard in that you wont grant Islam the same leeway you are ready to grant the Jews.
please no more references to dishonesty, on the contrary i have been incredibly candid, open and honest! as noted by Bosse, and no i do not need to justify anything done by the Jews nor the Islamist, what am i their spokesman!
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Originally posted by Bosse de Nageyou stated that this does not happen among the Muslims where you live, i am merely providing evidence to the contrary, that where are I used to live it is common, you will of course notice that it predominately happens to defenseless women! again giving attestation to the fact that there is NO EQUALITY either culturally or religiously in Islamic society.
And -- so what?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat simply means that many cultural traits are not specific to the religion predominant in that culture. This much should be obvious.
yes explain these terms, 'that something is culture-specific does not imply that it is religion-specific'. i have an idea but i do not want to assume anything.
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Originally posted by Palynkalol, i am actually in the process of trying to prove otherwise! and i really do believe that there is much evidence to the contrary.
That simply means that many cultural traits are not specific to the religion predominant in that culture. This much should be obvious.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou mean in Pakistani society.
you stated that this does not happen among the Muslims where you live, i am merely providing evidence to the contrary, that where are I used to live it is common, you will of course notice that it predominately happens to defenseless women! again giving attestation to the fact that there is NO EQUALITY either culturally or religiously in Islamic society.
So what?
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Originally posted by black beetlepage turn
As usually, it seems that the essence of this thread has to do more with the religionism -with the appaling "Ultimate Truth", which it must be spread by any means and it is taken too seriously by them insufferable religionist dolts regardless their religion and their denomination. They love more their religion than the people which they should love.
what Jesus would say over this?
Ahosyney, what the Prophet would say over this?