Text and Tradition

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If Jesus didn't raise from the dead, then Jesus Himself would be a liar, because in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, he explicitly says that He would rise from the dead after three days.

(I know this is probably going to tick you off) Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15:14-16:

"And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and y ...[text shortened]... d as more authoritative than anyone elses?

I don't know, that's up to you to decide.

Of course it is possible to find meaning in the Gospels without believing in the resurrection of Christ. We have a wealth of teachings about sin, forgiveness, ethics, accountability, relationships, attitudes, goodness and evil from Jesus.

If someone doesn't believe in the resurrection but finds something of value in the golden rule that helps them day to day that's fine with me.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]May be someone else was on the cross, not Jesus. Someone who looks like him, specially the one who was captured never said he is Jesus, and all the students left him, and no one was around at the crucification time.

First, Judas betrayed Jesus by identifying Him to the authorities with a kiss. Second, Jesus had already predicted His own crucif ...[text shortened]... lieves in him will have eternal life" (John 3:14-15).[/b]

The point the Hebrews author was making is that because of Christ's great faith God answered Him, and gave Him the strength necessary to carry out God's will. He did not save Christ from the cross, because the cross was God's will and way of salvation for all mankind. As Jesus Christ said Himself:

What I understand from these paragraph is that Jesus is not GOD, do you really belive that Jesus is GOD??? !!!!!!

How can saving him from death equal to give him strength?

Jesus asked GOD to save him and the verse say that GOD listened to him. How could it be without saving him?


"And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life" (John 3:14-15).

The bronze snake was not a real snake. It was a false one. As Moses raised a false snake. False Jesus was on the cross too.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]The point the Hebrews author was making is that because of Christ's great faith God answered Him, and gave Him the strength necessary to carry out God's will. He did not save Christ from the cross, because the cross was God's will and way of salvation for all mankind. As Jesus Christ said Himself:

What I understand from these paragraph is that J ...[text shortened]... snake. It was a false one. As Moses raised a false snake. False Jesus was on the cross too.[/b]

If you believe Jesus had someone die for Him in His place on the cross, then I'm not even going to attempt to explain the Triune nature of God to you (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). You obviously need to believe, for some reason, that a 'false Jesus was on the cross' and whatever I say isn't going to matter anyway, so believe what you want.

The evidence is there, if you only had the ears to hear it.

Originally posted by vistesd
I’m just going to be able to pop in and out here sporadically for the next couple of days, so it might take me awhile to catch up. But (and this is more of an aside than a response to your post)—

If I were able to say the Nicene Creed, say, with utmost sincerity, understanding it in the same way as the Nicene fathers (and without turning it all into meta ...[text shortened]... e." I mean, it would be a helluv an escape clause (pun intended) for one to hang his hat on!

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:20-21).

You can probably already see my argument from this verse.

If only believing in the Son of God makes us righteous in God's eyes, then what is suffering going to accomplish? Whether it be for ten days or ten thousand years or more? I presume the sufferings entailed would be the just recompense of the law for a sinful life unto purification? This would be according to the law, but, as Galatians 2:20-21 points out above, righteousness does not come by the law.

God's agape love through Jesus Christ allows any believer entrance into heaven, no matter how great a sinner he or she may be (messy mercy), but what you are talking about is what they call 'sloppy agape'. God's plan for salvation is not sloppy, but well defined. God is showing all His cards without any up His sleeve. If someone could gain entrance into heaven without believing in Jesus and the power of God which raised Jesus from the dead, then Jesus died in vain.

Holding out hope for unrepentant sinners who died in their sins may be emotionally satisfying, but such hope does not honor the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:20-21).

You can probably already see my argument from this verse.

If only believing in the Son of God makes us righteous in God's eyes, then what is suffering going to accomplish? Whether it be for ten days or ten thousand years or ...[text shortened]... ally satisfying, but such hope does not honor the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Your sentence "If someone could gain entrance into heaven without believing in Jesus and the power of God which raised him from the dead, then Jesus died in vain" in quite troubling. What are we to make if infants who have died? What are we to make of very fine spiritual people from other traditions who may represent the finest expressions of Christ's teachings and yet have never heard of Jesus?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Your sentence "If someone could gain entrance into heaven without believing in Jesus and the power of God which raised him from the dead, then Jesus died in vain" in quite troubling. What are we to make if infants who have died? What are we to make of very fine spiritual people from other traditions who may represent the finest expressions of Christ's teachings and yet have never heard of Jesus?

Or Jews.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Or Jews.

Let me give another example. A number of years ago, in the town I lived in there was a little boy who was diagnosed with cancer. His family ws very poor and could not afford his treatments. At one of the local strip clubs, all the dancers donated their tips one night for this little boy. What are we to make of such Christ-like behavior?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If you believe Jesus had someone die for Him in His place on the cross, then I'm not even going to attempt to explain the Triune nature of God to you (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). You obviously need to believe, for some reason, that a 'false Jesus was on the cross' and whatever I say isn't going to matter anyway, so believe what you want.

The evidence is there, if you only had the ears to hear it.

I just was answering you. Thank you any way. And you are right:

The evidence is there, if you only had the ears to hear it.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"And Jesus going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples by themselves in the way, and said to them, `Lo, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man shall be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the nations to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify, and the third day he will [b/]rise aga s 10:9-11).

I won't waste my time responding to all this as it looks like a cut and paste. Since I never said anything about Jesus "disappearing" or not being crucified, you seem to just have found some writing or site that gives an overview of Christian doctrine and copied it.

To this day, a lot of people claim to have seen or dealt with the dead. Most people find such a claim unlikely. I see no reason to believe such a claim from semi-primitive people 2000 years ago. I don't believe for a second that there was some mass raising of the dead as described in Matthew 27:52-54; this event seems to have been missed by the historians like Josephus of the period. Since this passage can be generously described as figurative, so can the ones describing Jesus' "resurrection". I note that when Jesus first supposedly appeared to Mary Magadalene and others, they didn't recognize him for some reason. Odd if he was physically resurrected.

I'd also mention that the discussion of the resurrection in Matthew is quite perfunctory being contained in a few passages in Matthew 28. Why Matthew wasted 27 1/2 chapters on the message and life of Jesus when the only important part was the resurrection is rather mysterious.

What do you, or the people who's material you use, make of Mark 16;12; 12 And after these things he was manifested in another form unto two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country. 13 And they went away and told it unto the rest: neither believed they them.

14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I won't waste my time responding to all this as it looks like a cut and paste. Since I never said anything about Jesus "disappearing" or not being crucified, you seem to just have found some writing or site that gives an overview of Christian doctrine and copied it.

To this day, a lot of people claim to have seen or dealt with the dead. Most p ...[text shortened]... of heart, [b]because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen.[/b]

So, in your opinion, was the resurrection of Lazarus a physical one? If not, what part of the scripture causes you to believe so.

Also, consider this passage:

"We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies" (2 Corinthians 5:2-3).

The new body Christ has is a 'heavenly body', not a spirit body, but an incorruptible body to house the spirit. From the biblical account, this new body can appear or reappear, and yet can be solid:

"Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe" (John 20:26-28).

Christ's physical body was not only resurrected, but transformed:

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

Of course, these are prophecies about the future resurrection of believers, but it describes what happened to Christ in His tomb, since He was the first to be resurrected in such a way (transformed into an incorruptible heavenly body) --

"That the Messiah would suffer and be the first to rise from the dead, and in this way announce God’s light to Jews and Gentiles alike" (Acts 26:23).

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18).

BTW, the 'disappearing' stuff wasn't intended for you. I wrote that in response to ahosyney's suggestion that a 'false Christ' died on the cross, and the real Christ disappeared for a while and then reappeared. I'm not here to waste your time; the ideas may not be mine, but I'm certainly not cutting and pasting any of them (save passages from scripture).

Originally posted by kirksey957
Your sentence "If someone could gain entrance into heaven without believing in Jesus and the power of God which raised him from the dead, then Jesus died in vain" in quite troubling. What are we to make if infants who have died? What are we to make of very fine spiritual people from other traditions who may represent the finest expressions of Christ's teachings and yet have never heard of Jesus?

That's why it's so important to get the Good News out there! As a Christian, one of my responsibilities is to preach the Gospel to whoever is willing to listen, within my own 'circle of relationships' -- friends, family and strangers alike. Not everyone I witness to will believe in Jesus Christ and, frankly, that's not my problem; neither is it my problem what happens outside my range of influence. Both aspects are squarely in God's hands, not mine. If you find it troubling that no one gets to heaven except through believing in Christ, then your problem is with God, not me. What are you to make of infants who have died, or all the fine spiritual people who never heard of or believed in Jesus? Take it up with the Lord, it's not for me to answer.

"Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

"So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:14-16, 18-20).

Originally posted by kirksey957
Let me give another example. A number of years ago, in the town I lived in there was a little boy who was diagnosed with cancer. His family ws very poor and could not afford his treatments. At one of the local strip clubs, all the dancers donated their tips one night for this little boy. What are we to make of such Christ-like behavior?

What do you make of it?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
So, in your opinion, was the resurrection of Lazarus a physical one? If not, what part of the scripture causes you to believe so.

Also, consider this passage:

"We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies" (2 Corin ...[text shortened]... inly not cutting and pasting any of them (save passages from scripture).

You quoted a lot of Paul as most Fundies do. So Jesus' "transformed" body didn't look like his dead one? As the Church Lady would say, "How convenient!"

Originally posted by epiphinehas
What do you make of it?

What do I make of it? We should be around people who exhibit Christ-like behavior.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:14-16, 18-20).

It's a valid question.