Text and Tradition

Originally posted by epiphinehas
OK, sir, disprove with the bible the 'fundamental views' I hold.

How does my challenge of your positions make me arrogant or loudmouthed? 🙂

Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I have to be nice. Especially when God's word is being minced.

"Why don't you read it and see for yourself" is an arrogant, misinformed comment made by a loudmouth.

I've spent a complete of years shooting down Fundamentalist misinterpretations of the Bible here. In the end, they always fall back to the Secret Decoder Ring Defense i.e. "Only a Christian can REALLY understand the meaning of the Bible". So it's a waste of time; you people aren't interested in examining your views, you rigidly insist that you MUST be correct because you say so.

Originally posted by no1marauder
"Why don't you read it and see for yourself" is an arrogant, misinformed comment made by a loudmouth.

I've spent a complete of years shooting down Fundamentalist misinterpretations of the Bible here. In the end, they always fall back to the Secret Decoder Ring Defense i.e. "Only a Christian can REALLY understand the meaning of the Bible". So i ...[text shortened]... in examining your views, you rigidly insist that you MUST be correct because you say so.

OK, since you are well-practiced as a fundamentalist debunker, why don't you please give me the classic fundamentalist interpretation, followed by your unique interpretation, of John 3:18:

"He who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

After that, why don't you do the same for 1 Corinthians 2:12-15:

"And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned."

These are my views. Please, by all means, examine them. 🙂

Originally posted by vistesd
The whole bottom-line of my inquiry here might be about reading the texts in such a way that they suffocate rather than nurture; or hem one’s faith in rather than allowing it to open out to possibility. Part of a risky faith is perhaps trusting toward possibility in the face of uncertainty, and even the ultimately unknown—again, more of an existentia ...[text shortened]... ttitude than adherence to a body of doctrine. Faith always implies openness to me, not closure.

"You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way" (Matthew 7:13).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way" (Matthew 7:13).

Jesus gives a specific description of Judgement Day and the criteria by which men shall be judged in Matthew 25:31-46.

John 3:18 should be read in context; John 3:19-20 go on to say:

19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way" (Matthew 7:13).

Jesus shows a little pessimism there but you might want to read the beginning of the chapter:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone;

10 or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets

The first line is pretty good advice that Christian Fundamentalists invariably ignore.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Jesus shows a little pessimism there but you might want to read the beginning of the chapter:

1 [b]Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the b ...[text shortened]...
The first line is pretty good advice that Christian Fundamentalists invariably ignore.[/b]

How can a man 'cast the mote out of his brother's eye' without first judging him? He can't. You must judge. Christ isn't saying here to completely renounce any judgment whatsoever, but instead to judge others from authority, seeing clearly. The only purpose of judging your brother while 'a beam is in thine own eye' is to harm. Only evil is accomplished. However, to judge your brother's error with the purpose of reconciling him to the truth, is righteous. I know where you and vistesd are coming from. I've been there, and because of that I can see clearly where you err. Somebody needs to call you on it. Since I would want someone to do so for me, so I'm doing so for you.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
How can a man 'cast the mote out of his brother's eye' without first judging him? He can't. You must judge. Christ isn't saying here to completely renounce any judgment whatsoever, but instead to judge others from authority, seeing clearly. The only purpose of judging your brother while 'a beam is in thine own eye' is to harm. Only evil is ac ...[text shortened]... call you on it. Since I would want someone to do so for me, so I'm doing so for you.

I know where you and vistesd are coming from.

In my case at least, I think that is doubtful. I have not made that presumption with respect to you; if you want to make it with respect to me, that’s your call.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Yes, I imagine authority is a difficult matter for you. In all these spheres you are seeking to undermine it. Without mentioning the Spirit, I say: if you don't know God's authority, then you don't know God. God is not the author of confusion. God is light and Truth. How can the Truth, as found in God's word, 'set you free' if it carries no power or ...[text shortened]... ur beliefs, then I doubt you have any kind of faith at all. Not in yourself, or God.

If you cannot assert any certainty about your beliefs, then I doubt you have any kind of faith at all. Not in yourself, or God.

If you think that faith means certainty of beliefs (i.e., absolute knowledge), then I doubt that you understand the word “faith.”

You may or may not understand this, but my faith in what I call God is radically absolute. But it is not a faith dependent on any particular belief about that God—yours or mine, as we speak. Except, perhaps, this: I do not think that the nature of the ultimate reality is capricious in such a way that I would have any terror about my ultimate fate, even without speculating as to what that might be. I have sometimes characterized faith as being, in part, a decision. But in my case, that does not seem entirely accurate—at least I cannot for myself identify the moment or means of making such a decision. All of my life, including my religious inquiry, is affected by that stance.

Now, some people, it appears, treat God as a kind of game-show host (I’m not accusing you of being one of them!)—a kind of Regis Philbin saying, “Is that your final answer?” I cannot be one of them.

So many people seem to create or to acquire an image about God, and then place all their faith in that image. If the image is attacked, they think their faith is being attacked—and maybe it is. My faith does not depend upon a particularistic image, and is therefore open to possibility. I claim no virtue in that: it is just the way it is.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
How can a man 'cast the mote out of his brother's eye' without first judging him? He can't. You must judge. Christ isn't saying here to completely renounce any judgment whatsoever, but instead to judge others from authority, seeing clearly. The only purpose of judging your brother while 'a beam is in thine own eye' is to harm. Only evil is ac ...[text shortened]... call you on it. Since I would want someone to do so for me, so I'm doing so for you.

NRS Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.”

So—your argument here is that Jesus couldn’t have meant just what he said, because that wouldn’t make any sense? And so he must’ve meant ____________?

Maybe. But that is hardly an argument for Biblical literalism (again, I am not saying—because I do not know—that that is your position).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
How can a man 'cast the mote out of his brother's eye' without first judging him? He can't. You must judge. Christ isn't saying here to completely renounce any judgment whatsoever, but instead to judge others from authority, seeing clearly. The only purpose of judging your brother while 'a beam is in thine own eye' is to harm. Only evil is ac ...[text shortened]... call you on it. Since I would want someone to do so for me, so I'm doing so for you.

Thank you for correcting Jesus. Maybe you should him an e-mail and tell him how he could better phrase his sentences since according to you when he says "Judge not" he means "JUDGE!".

Upon considering further, it's quite striking how our Fundie friends totally turn upside down Jesus message. Let's look at the first part of this passage:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Now, a mote. This is what my Unger's Bible Dictionary has to say about "mote":

Any small, dry particle, as of chaff, wood, etc. (Matt 7:3-5; Luke 6:41,42), and figurative of some slight moral defect seen in another. These the self-righteous man is apt to see, while unconscious to greater evils in himself. The proverb was a familiar one with the Hebrews.

Jesus compares the mote i.e. a slight defect that hypocrites see in their brother's eye while ignoring the "beam" i.e a big, ole hunk of wood in their own eye, figuratively meaning a much greater moral failing. So the message is clear: one cannot judge others when you have moral failings yourself. And since all men have such failings, it behooves you to worry about "casting the beam out of your eye" i.e. correct and avoid major moral failings rather than worry about the minor failings i.e. the "motes" others have.

Take Jesus' advice, pal.

EDIT: epiphinehas: I've been there, and because of that I can see clearly where you err.

That sentence is EXACTLY what Jesus is talking about.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Upon considering further, it's quite striking how our Fundie friends totally turn upside down Jesus message. Let's look at the first part of this passage:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote tha here you err.

That sentence is EXACTLY what Jesus is talking about.

"Cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Jesus here is teaching the proper way to correct a brother. He's not teaching that we should never attempt to 'cast out the mote' from a brother's eye. He instructs to first cast out the 'beam' in your own eye, then you will be able to see clearly how to 'cast the mote' out of your brother's eye. If there is no teaching, judgment, discernment, chastisement or instruction, then how are people to learn? Jesus is not meaning here to paralyze our ability to judge. He's warning not to be hypocritical, and pointing out how to judge without being hypocritical.

Have I accused you of any moral failing? No. I've been correcting your misunderstandings concerning the bible. You're the one who is hiding behind the 'judge not' scripture as if it applied to you; as if I should not 'judge' your biblical errors. Get real, pal.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]If you cannot assert any certainty about your beliefs, then I doubt you have any kind of faith at all. Not in yourself, or God.

If you think that faith means certainty of beliefs (i.e., absolute knowledge), then I doubt that you understand the word “faith.”

You may or may not understand this, but my faith in what I call God is radically absolut ...[text shortened]... ge, and is therefore open to possibility. I claim no virtue in that: it is just the way it is.[/b]

Consider me, then, as a 'watchman' of sorts. I respect your right to believe what you want, of course, but if you try to modify the bible to support what you want to believe and not what it plainly says, then the hammer is going to drop. If you don't agree with the bible, then why don't you find the courage to reject it outright? Don't toy with the message. If you do, I have no choice but to call you on it. But if you believe the bible is the word of God, then submit to it. Don't toy with the message. Again, if you do, I have no choice but to call you on it.

If submission to the word of God makes me a 'fundamentalist', then so be it. I don't mind being your foil. 🙂

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Consider me, then, as a 'watchman' of sorts. I respect your right to believe what you want, of course, but if you try to modify the bible to support what you want to believe and not what it plainly says, then the hammer is going to drop. If you don't agree with the bible, then why don't you find the courage to reject it outright? Don't toy with the me ...[text shortened]... d of God makes me a 'fundamentalist', then so be it. I don't mind being your foil. 🙂

But if you believe the bible is the word of God, then submit to it.

No, I do not think the Bible is “the word of God”—at least in the way that some seem to mean that phrase (which I think sometimes might approach idolatry). I think it is the words of men (often inspired) about God, and the nature of that God (including a God who becomes incarnate). I find no reason to reject it; quite the contrary. I search and study it.

The logos of God is not a book. That would be idolatry. Seeking certainty in any “graven image”—whether graven in wood, or words on a page, or in the mind—seems quite the opposite of faith; rather it seems an attempt to flee from faith. And yet, it is the human tendency (and I do not claim to be immune): “It is an awesome/frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way" (Matthew 7:13).

I don’t what translation you quoted this from, but I cannot find a major translation that renders apoleia as “hell.” The word means destruction, ruin, waste. KJV, NIV, NRSV, NJB all render it as destruction, as does Young’s Literal Translation (YLT). It is contrasted here with subsisting life (zoe).

And what is the meaning of the narrow gate—and the road that is “compressed” (thlibo), tight—in 7:14? I think the answer is given within the verse itself: few find it. It seems the difficulty of discovery, not arduousness of travel, that this particular text refers to.