Originally posted by epiphinehasOiy Vey! I know Stephen would never boast about his accomplishments or abilities related to translating and understanding texts of various languages. So please allow me. He is an incredible scholar and a little humility (which he always shows) would serve you well. You might learn something. What you have working for you is an "all or nothing" theology. Kind of like a little kid who says "If I can't chocolate syrup on my ice cream, it is crap."
Consider me, then, as a 'watchman' of sorts. I respect your right to believe what you want, of course, but if you try to modify the bible to support what you want to believe and not what it plainly says, then the hammer is going to drop. If you don't agree with the bible, then why don't you find the courage to reject it outright? Don't toy with the me ...[text shortened]... d of God makes me a 'fundamentalist', then so be it. I don't mind being your foil. 🙂
You would do well to submit to some learnin', boy.
Originally posted by no1marauderI think it’s quite wonderful how this passage revolves around itself, so to speak. I would suggest that the “beam” may precisely be the presumption to spiritually judge others. It reminded me of the parable told in Luke about the Pharisee and the tax-collector—
Upon considering further, it's quite striking how our Fundie friends totally turn upside down Jesus message. Let's look at the first part of this passage:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote tha ...[text shortened]... here you err.
That sentence is EXACTLY what Jesus is talking about.
> Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.'
13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted."
First, notice that the Pharisee, far from crediting himself with his goodness, thanks God for it. So his error is not in thinking that his righteousness is self-bestowed.
Second, the passage nowhere indicates that the Pharisee is not a morally good or righteous person.
Third, surely he sees clearly the wrongness of such things as theft and adultery. So that kind of judgment is not his error either.
Fourth, he does not inaccurately judge the tax-collector as a sinner, for that is what the tax-collector admits himself.
I suggest that his error lies in the fact that his trust in his own righteousness has become the “beam in his eye” that permits him to pronounce judgment, in terms of his perceived spiritual superiority to the tax-collector.
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On the other hand, as your Unger’s seems to indicate, the “beam” may simply be whatever it is that leads us to assume that we have attained a position of spiritual superiority sufficient to condemn others, rather than practicing continual self-examination. Sort of an assumption that we have somehow “made it.”
When we read his teachings, it might be best to keep in mind that Jesus himself said that his mission was “not to judge the world, but to heal (sozo) the world.” His words ought to be taken in that context, I think. Even as the incarnate logos tou theou, if Jesus left judgment up to God, who am I to presume...
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Note: It’s ironic here how much discernment—“judgment”—has to be applied to sort out the different nuances of that simple word “judge” according to different contexts.
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhat it plainly says?
...but if you try to modify the bible to support what you want to believe and not what it plainly says, then the hammer is going to drop.
Wow. I'm glad to know that there is at least one person who is
totally unencumbered with 20th- and 21st-century cultural and
theological influences with a complete handle on 1st-century Hebraic
vernacular who can finally tell us what the Bible plainly says.
Whatever.
Indeed, one can firmly believe that the Bible is a God-inspired
text and completely disagree with you and your 19th-century theology.
The question isn't what you think the passage says, but what the
author intended by the passage as he tried to reflect Jesus' teachings
in the post-temple 1st century.
And, this necessarily requires you to abandon any pretense that the
Bible was preconceived as having 73 books or that the authors of the
various texts collaborated in any direct way or that they tell a single
coherent story (in the case of the New Testament).
Nemesio
Originally posted by epiphinehasI suggest you should consider the old saying about "missing the forest for the trees".
How can a man 'cast the mote out of his brother's eye' without first judging him? He can't. You must judge. Christ isn't saying here to completely renounce any judgment whatsoever, but instead to judge others from authority, seeing clearly. The only purpose of judging your brother while 'a beam is in thine own eye' is to harm. Only evil is ac ...[text shortened]... call you on it. Since I would want someone to do so for me, so I'm doing so for you.
Originally posted by NemesioYou know, I would hesitate to class writings of the literary stature of the Gospel of Matthew, say, or John, as being “plain.” It strikes me that if the church was seeking “plainness,” the NT canon could have been much smaller (one of the synpotics plus John, say, and Acts)—perhaps with an accompanying list of deutero-canonical NT books (most of the letters, Revelation...).
What it plainly says?
Wow. I'm glad to know that there is at least one person who is
totally unencumbered with 20th- and 21st-century cultural and
theological influences with a complete handle on 1st-century Hebraic
vernacular who can finally tell us what the Bible plainly says.
Whatever.
Indeed, one can firmly believe that the ...[text shortened]... way or that they tell a single
coherent story (in the case of the New Testament).
Nemesio
Originally posted by vistesdFor that I used the New Living translation. You're right, it doesn't specifically name 'hell'. I should have checked on that first. Sorry.
I don’t what translation you quoted this from, but I cannot find a major translation that renders apoleia as “hell.” The word means destruction, ruin, waste. KJV, NIV, NRSV, NJB all render it as destruction, as does Young’s Literal Translation (YLT). It is contrasted here with subsisting life (zoe).
And what is the meaning of the narrow g ...[text shortened]... ems the difficulty of discovery, not arduousness of travel, that this particular text refers to.
But I suppose you mean to say that 'destruction' in that instance doesn't refer to eternal damnation... You ever intend to skirt that issue, don't you?
The narrow way, the strait gate, the door, is Christ:
"Jesus said therefore again to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you -- I am the door of the sheep; I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture" (John 10:7,9 YLT).
If you do not believe, cleave, trust, and rely on Jesus Christ, thereby walking according to the Spirit, you will come to destruction. God's judgment is final:
"And a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' and he said unto them, `Be striving to go in through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in, and shall not be able; from the time the master of the house may have risen up, and may have shut the door, and ye may begin without to stand, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, lord, open to us, and he answering shall say to you, I have not known you whence ye are" (Luke 13:23-25 YLT).
"the bridegroom came, and those ready went in with him to the marriage-feasts, and the door was shut; and afterwards come also do the rest of the virgins, saying, Sir, sir, open to us; and he answering said, Verily I say to you, I have not known you. `Watch therefore, for ye have not known the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man doth come" (Matthew 25:10-13).
Are seeing the pattern yet? For your sake, I hope so.
Jesus is the open Door, yet He won't be open forever. At some point, at the Lord's discretion, He will be shut. Those who did not believe in Him will be shut outside, cast into outer darkness. This is urgent News. Open your ears and listen to it.
Originally posted by epiphinehasI am on my way out the door to run some errands, so just this one point—
For that I used the New Living translation. You're right, it doesn't specifically name 'hell'. I should have checked on that first. Sorry.
But I suppose you mean to say that 'destruction' in that instance doesn't refer to eternal damnation... You ever intend to skirt that issue, don't you?
The narrow way, the strait gate, the door, is Christ:
...[text shortened]... t into outer darkness. This is urgent News. Open your ears and listen to it.
But I suppose you mean to say that 'destruction' in that instance doesn't refer to eternal damnation... You ever intend to skirt that issue, don't you?
The simple answer is: I don’t know. A good teacher who meant eternal damnation would have said just that; here the possibility of meaning seems more open, and does not exclude that one.
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhat is your take on Mark10:25-27?
For that I used the New Living translation. You're right, it doesn't specifically name 'hell'. I should have checked on that first. Sorry.
But I suppose you mean to say that 'destruction' in that instance doesn't refer to eternal damnation... You ever intend to skirt that issue, don't you?
The narrow way, the strait gate, the door, is Christ:
...[text shortened]... t into outer darkness. This is urgent News. Open your ears and listen to it.
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasTo survey the entire forest, read Matthew 25:1-46. The parable of the bridegroom and the parable following it are directly related to Jesus' description of Judgment Day (probably why they're in the same chapter).
For that I used the New Living translation. You're right, it doesn't specifically name 'hell'. I should have checked on that first. Sorry.
But I suppose you mean to say that 'destruction' in that instance doesn't refer to eternal damnation... You ever intend to skirt that issue, don't you?
The narrow way, the strait gate, the door, is Christ:
t into outer darkness. This is urgent News. Open your ears and listen to it.
EDIT: Luke 13:29-30: 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last.
Doesn't sound as "Studio 54ish" as you make it out to be.
Originally posted by vistesdYou miss the spirit of the verse. What justifies the tax-collector is the sorrow he feels for his sins. What condemns the Pharisee is that he has no sorrow for his sins. It's a simple difference, but the difference is vast.
I suggest that his error lies in the fact that his trust in his own righteousness has become the “beam in his eye” that permits him to pronounce judgment, in terms of his perceived spiritual superiority to the tax-collector.
Originally posted by ballsofsteelWhat sins of the Pharisee does Jesus mention in that passage?
You miss the spirit of the verse. What justifies the tax-collector is the sorrow he feels for his sins. What condemns the Pharisee is that he has no sorrow for his sins. It's a simple difference, but the difference is vast.
Originally posted by ballsofsteelWith regard to the justification of the tax-collector, I can’t disagree; I would only add that there was also the self-integrity of recognizing his sins.
You miss the spirit of the verse. What justifies the tax-collector is the sorrow he feels for his sins. What condemns the Pharisee is that he has no sorrow for his sins. It's a simple difference, but the difference is vast.
I still think it’s more likely, though, that the Pharisee’s not being justified has to do with his judgmental pointing to the tax-collector—in part because of the point made in the preface to the parable in verse 9.
Originally posted by kirksey957“We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins” (Romans 3:22-24).
What is your take on Mark10:25-27?
That's my take on Mark 10:25-27.
Originally posted by no1marauderExactly, and that's why I used the quotes I did, because I was talking about Judgment Day.
To survey the entire forest, read Matthew 25:1-46. The parable of the bridegroom and the parable following it are directly related to Jesus' description of Judgment Day (probably why they're in the same chapter).
EDIT: Luke 13:29-30: 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. ...[text shortened]... t who shall be last.
Doesn't sound as "Studio 54ish" as you make it out to be.
God's grace to sinners through Jesus Christ is open to everyone. It is not an elitist club:
“We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins” (Romans 3:22-24).
However, the door will be shut one day, as the scriptures indicate. Everyone who did not believe in Christ will be cast into outer darkness, because that is God's eternal penalty for sin.
Do you believe in Jesus Christ and His message of salvation?