Originally posted by Hand of HecateFrom too much love of living,
Yes, as we gorge ourselves on turkey, let's give thanks. We have much to be thankful for afterall. Particularly that we aren't on the receiving end of this two-fold genocidal celebration.
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
-Swinburne, "The Garden of Proserpine"
Fairness is not particularly relevant in giving thanks; nor is the prospect of giving and receiving thanks especially relevant to how the people of this world function. Consider that half of the people on this planet Earth live on less than $2 a day.
But I would not consider Thanksgiving a futile exercise so long as thanks is given in those cases in which it is warranted.
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Originally posted by Hand of HecateMy ancestors weren't here at the time to invade or prevent invasion.
Yes, as we gorge ourselves on turkey, let's give thanks. We have much to be thankful for afterall. Particularly that we aren't on the receiving end of this two-fold genocidal celebration. Not just a Holiday, but a Holy Day of thanks where we gather together and celibrate the genocide of the Native Americans by snuffing out millions of turkeys. Who ditional burning of the Jew log on a roaring fire. Much drinking and gluttony will follow.
I am thankful for having enough food to eat and remember when I didn't.
I am thankful for having heat and electricity and remember when I didn't.
I am thankful for having sobriety and remember when I didn't.
I am thankful for having friends and family and remember when I thought I was alone.
I was just as thankful when my brother and I celebrated with pot roast cooked in a crock pot.
I hope you care as much the rest of the year when animals, birds, and fish are eaten, and I hope you care as much about the other results of British invasions around the world. Finally, I hope you care enough to look up what it is the rest of us are actually celebrating on Thanksgiving. Sounds like your house celebrates something different.
Originally posted by ZahlanziYou're full of cynicism. Can't you just be thankful without feeling like a murderer?
sure, but we are talking about the people who starved, got a helping hand from the indians and then went and killed them. we are talking about the people who still gave thanks even during the indian massacre, even during slavery. even the KKK gave thanks after they returned from a lynching.
thanksgiving has nothing to do with murder. its just that the m ...[text shortened]... it. because by giving thanks for the gains they got by murder they are committing murder again.
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Originally posted by josephwIf the day was named after and celebrated on a day on which the German army gave thanks for some great massacre they had just committed would you still celebrate it? Would you still expect everyone else to ignore the origin of the holiday and just celebrate the 'good side' of it?
You're full of cynicism. Can't you just be thankful without feeling like a murderer?
I do not know the full history of Thanksgiving, but if it is strongly connected to anything distasteful I do not think that should be ignored.
Originally posted by twhiteheadhttp://tinyurl.com/2cdrmo
If the day was named after and celebrated on a day on which the German army gave thanks for some great massacre they had just committed would you still celebrate it? Would you still expect everyone else to ignore the origin of the holiday and just celebrate the 'good side' of it?
I do not know the full history of Thanksgiving, but if it is strongly connected to anything distasteful I do not think that should be ignored.
The Thanksgiving holiday in the United States commemorates the first thanksgiving, which was a feast attended by a group of Pilgrims and the local tribe of Native Americans who helped them survive their first winter by teaching them to plant corn, etc. I googled "origins of thanksgiving" to find you a link and it took less than sixty seconds. Had you tried that, you would have realized how incredibly far off-base your post and thoughts about the holiday are. The holiday has nothing to do with anything that came after that any more than celebrating Christmas has to do with taking a position on Israel's policies in the West Bank.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadWe suffer when we go through natural disasters, they occur and hit
I don't entirely disagree with you but I am doubtful that we can accurately describe the majority of our ills in that way. For example many natural disasters are avoidable simply by avoiding living in areas that are prone to natural disasters. But is it accurate to say that we bring it on ourselves because we haven't evacuated all earthquake zones, all co ...[text shortened]... k), all hurricane, typhoon or tornado areas, all areas at risk of drought or floods and so on?
everyone without regard to station or position in life, and we suffer
with sicknesses too. I don't mean to belittle those that suffer through
either a natural disaster or a sickness; however, still at our own
hands do we see much of the suffering on the planet. We could
prevent much of it, yet we do not, we can ease much of the suffering
a lot of us are going through, yet we do not. We could apply
ourselves vigorously to finding cures, but we spend a ton of money
on the ability to find new and improved ways to maim and kill one
another. We put ourselves into positions where by our own actions
we create pain and suffering to ourselves and others by being
selfish and irresponsible as well.
One of the bad things about all of this is that we are always looking
for away to blame someone else for these types of behaviors when
we want to justify our own (mine too) bad behavior. We really
do need to learn how to be thankful, forgiving, and full of grace
towards each other. Pity we cannot even just say today we should be
thankful without someone getting upset on what occurred hundreds of
years ago by others who are long since dead.
Now after all of that, I'll stop and look at my logs in my own eyes
before I start naming names here. 🙂
Kelly
Originally posted by josephwthe 23'rd of august was a national holiday in my country. it marked the day when the romanian army, along with the red army pushed the last of the germans out of romania. it was a worthy event, no more nazi invaders (the russian kind of invaders stayed more than they were welcomed afterwards).
You're full of cynicism. Can't you just be thankful without feeling like a murderer?
over the years, this holiday was so perverted that it became an opportunity to celebrate the communist regime, the communist leader that we all feared and loathed.(most). a lavish display of our love for our leaders, love we didn't have.
now most romanians don't associate the 23'rd with the end of the WWII for us, but with the day we were all forced to go watch the communist parades.
Originally posted by pawnhandleryou are also far off base here. have you been reading this thread? we do not question the merit of the holiday, but what some of the ones celebrating did. the native americans saved the first pilgrims. and what did they later do? they killed the injuns, destroyed their culture.
http://tinyurl.com/2cdrmo
The Thanksgiving holiday in the United States commemorates the first thanksgiving, which was a feast attended by a group of Pilgrims and the local tribe of Native Americans who helped them survive their first winter by teaching them to plant corn, etc. I googled "origins of thanksgiving" to find you a link and it took less t ...[text shortened]... celebrating Christmas has to do with taking a position on Israel's policies in the West Bank.
it is like the nazi germans celebrating the rebuilding of their nation after the WWI while the jews were dying in the death camps, the same jews that also helped rebuild a germany that was theirs also.
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Originally posted by ZahlanziSo what are you proposing here? All immigrants from Europe go back? All 300 million? Should we give half of the country back to the 'Indians'?3/4? 90 %? What is your solution? Should all immigrants commit suicide for the sins of the great great great great grandfathers?
you are also far off base here. have you been reading this thread? we do not question the merit of the holiday, but what some of the ones celebrating did. the native americans saved the first pilgrims. and what did they later do? they killed the injuns, destroyed their culture.
it is like the nazi germans celebrating the rebuilding of their nation after ...[text shortened]... dying in the death camps, the same jews that also helped rebuild a germany that was theirs also.
Even if we do all that, Indian culture is still mostly dead and won't ever be rebuilt like it was 400 years ago.
Originally posted by ZahlanziI did read the thread, and I'm fairly sure that no one who posted ever massacred anyone. I'm also fairly sure that no one who posted celebrated the massacre of anyone. Columbus Day is about the horrible things that happened once the Spaniards and those who came after them arrived. The majority of the people in the United States are descended of people who arrived in the US after 1900. We didn't do it, our ancestors didn't do it, and it's not what Thanksgiving is about.
you are also far off base here. have you been reading this thread? we do not question the merit of the holiday, but what some of the ones celebrating did. the native americans saved the first pilgrims. and what did they later do? they killed the injuns, destroyed their culture.
it is like the nazi germans celebrating the rebuilding of their nation after ...[text shortened]... dying in the death camps, the same jews that also helped rebuild a germany that was theirs also.
If I follow your logic, then, we should no longer have Christmas trees because that tradition was brought here by German immigrants, and having a Christmas tree therefore celebrates the holocaust according to your theories.
Originally posted by KellyJayI fully agree that a large amount of suffering could be prevented if we could only work together better and be more caring etc. However failure to prevent is not the same as being the cause. I still don't think that we directly cause the majority of suffering even though we may be guilty of not preventing it.
I don't mean to belittle those that suffer through
either a natural disaster or a sickness; however, still at our own
hands do we see much of the suffering on the planet. We could
prevent much of it, yet we do not, we can ease much of the suffering
a lot of us are going through, yet we do not. We could apply
ourselves vigorously to finding cures, ...[text shortened]... d a ton of money
on the ability to find new and improved ways to maim and kill one
another.
For example most African nations remain extremely poor because their own people /governments and other people /governments have failed to help them out of poverty for various reasons. But nobody made them poor, they started off poor.
Originally posted by pawnhandlerYou did not read my post carefully enough. Josephw is saying that it is irrelevant what the origin of the holiday was and I am pointing out that that is not the case. By digging in to its origin you are supporting my argument.
Had you tried that, you would have realized how incredibly far off-base your post and thoughts about the holiday are. The holiday has nothing to do with anything that came after that any more than celebrating Christmas has to do with taking a position on Israel's policies in the West Bank.
From what I can determine thanksgiving is partly a harvest festival and as such I see no problem with celebrating it. However it also seems to hold strong significance to many Americans as a sort of celebration of the founding of America and as such I think it should be questioned.
My worry is that it covers over the terrible history of the early colonies whilst at the same time placing too much importance on those early setters. It almost disregards the fact that people lived there long before that.
Originally posted by sonhousebe sorry and stop celebrating something related with the native americans. invent your own holiday.
So what are you proposing here? All immigrants from Europe go back? All 300 million? Should we give half of the country back to the 'Indians'?3/4? 90 %? What is your solution? Should all immigrants commit suicide for the sins of the great great great great grandfathers?
Even if we do all that, Indian culture is still mostly dead and won't ever be rebuilt like it was 400 years ago.
Originally posted by pawnhandlerwell apart from the fact that having a christmas tree is an idiotic custom (putting christmas decorations on a tree that took years to grow and throwing it away after christmas is barbaric) it is not really the same thing.
I did read the thread, and I'm fairly sure that no one who posted ever massacred anyone. I'm also fairly sure that no one who posted celebrated the massacre of anyone. Columbus Day is about the horrible things that happened once the Spaniards and those who came after them arrived. The majority of the people in the United States are descended of people ...[text shortened]... and having a Christmas tree therefore celebrates the holocaust according to your theories.
nobody was given free food on christmas and then went around to kill the people who gave them that food.
also not only germans have christmas trees so you might wanna look a bit harder for your examples.