that darn Jesus delusion!

I've been there and I know what that feeling is like. You're an Atheist and you just don't see why you should give God a chance to reveal himself. You want to know that He's real before you give anything over to Him.

It's the Catch 22 thing. Frustratingly God offers Himself to us in a different way. He says take some steps and I will show you (seek and you will find). However , many Atheists want to find (or know) before they seek. I understand the dilemma. I was in it for 2 decades myself. My fear was that if I started down the round of faith (even tentatively) then I might "get sucked in" and it would appear that Jesus was real when he wasn't.

It's the fear of deluding oneself. I might lose myself in the delusion and not ever get back. However , I realised that I was viewing the delusion from the outside. To me it seemed that Christians were possibly brainwashed and deluded. Now I think similar thoughts in reverse.

But there is something interesting here in the middle of all this. First of all is the fear that we might end up in a "deluded" state where we might actually feel that Jesus was for real. This is interesting in itself. I always wondered about this. I couldn't quite figure out why it seemed real for Christians. Now I realise that they had the inner witness of the Spirit.

Secondly , Jesus did talk about "losing oneself" . He said "Anyone who loses his life for my sake will find his life , but he who keeps his life will lose it " . Jesus himself recognised that there was this element of losing one's life.

So , what is one to do? Keep one's life and never know Him. Or take a risk and find out what all the fuss is about? Trust me , if you get anywhere near God you will feel like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix faced with the blue pill or the red pill. Fortunately the Truth turns out much much better than the film.

Funny thing though. Now that I have taken the red pill I find that I am still free to go back to my old life if I want. God does not take away my freedom nor does he force me to go any further. I have come to see that this is the way God has set it up for us. If he makes himself completely known then our choice is taken away because once faced with the glorious beauty of God who would choose against it? So (and Atheists will hate this) God hides himself and allows us space within his creation to freely choose.

But every now and then he shows up like Morpheus (in the film) and gives us the red / blue pill choice. I understand why many out there don't want to go anywhere near the pills at all. They might get "deluded" by that "fantasy Holy Spirit dude".

So you think we're lost and deluded and we think you are lost and deluded. that makes us quits. That's the way it will always be to a certain extent. However , arrogant though it may sound to Atheists , I feel that I understand it from both sides of the fence. And I know that I've found something incredible , precious and real in Jesus that I didn't even know I was missing. Something that I know that if you got a taste of it you would not talk the way you do on these forums.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I've been there and I know what that feeling is like. You're an Atheist and you just don't see why you should give God a chance to reveal himself. You want to know that He's real before you give anything over to Him.

It's the Catch 22 thing. Frustratingly God offers Himself to us in a different way. He says take some steps and I will show you (seek ...[text shortened]... I might "get sucked in" and it would appear that Jesus was real when he wasn't.


.

so do you believe in your god 100%?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so do you believe in your god 100%?

No , there is always a level of unbelief and belief mixed in. Otherwise faith would not be necessary. There are times when God seems far off and it's hard. But there are times when His Spirit is close and real and I'm left in little or no doubt.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I've been there and I know what that feeling is like. You're an Atheist and you just don't see why you should give God a chance to reveal himself. You want to know that He's real before you give anything over to Him.

It's the Catch 22 thing. Frustratingly God offers Himself to us in a different way. He says take some steps and I will show you (seek got a taste of it you would not talk the way you do on these forums.

You talk as if we're consciously trying to avoid believing in your "God" when it is more the case that we simply cannot. Indeed how long would it take you to convince yourself you're the Gingerbread Man? Is it the case you avoid believing as such!?

Acknowledging some insignificant level of doubt that I could be wrong (smaller than I can anything I can appreciate) I am sure, beyond all need of checking, that your "God" does not exist. Similarly, with slightly more doubt, you are confident you're not the Gingerbread Man.

Originally posted by knightmeister
No , there is always a level of unbelief and belief mixed in. Otherwise faith would not be necessary. There are times when God seems far off and it's hard. But there are times when His Spirit is close and real and I'm left in little or no doubt.

Maybe your idea of God is not entirely correct and therefor thats why you have mixed beliefs.
Would you say "about Him"? or "about It"?

Religious superstition can be comforting to humans.

Originally posted by knightmeister
[(seek and you will find).

that is a very important factor. what exactly were you seeking? what exactly did you find? if you have a god who hides in mystery, it is easy to find any god that your mind can imagine.

the god you found happens to be an accident of your culture or personal experience to religion exposure. what if you went seeking for allah and found allah? what if you went seeking for vishnu instead and found vishnu?

the above scenario is entirely possible since millions of people believe they have found allah and vishnu or as in your case, christ. what brings all these people together is one common thread: self delusion.

for it is path of self delusion you must embark on in order to find a god who hides in mystery.

as it is a self-delusion, most of the various adherents of these various faiths are equally adamant about the strength of their faith and rightness of their path. they take a certain pride in their self delusion. while it starts out as cognitive dissonance, it slowly builds up into a complex mental disorder until reaching a point where adherents are no longer able to separate the threads of reality from fantasy.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So you think we're lost and deluded and we think you are lost and deluded. that makes us quits.

No, actually it doesn't. I can back up my assertion with evidence, you cant. You are the one that should be in the psychological hospital, and if the doctor evaluating us deserves his doctorate degree in medicine then he will know this.

Now, explain to us why you didn't take the Muslim pill?

Originally posted by knightmeister
No , there is always a level of unbelief and belief mixed in. Otherwise faith would not be necessary. There are times when God seems far off and it's hard. But there are times when His Spirit is close and real and I'm left in little or no doubt.

i thought it was supposed to be blind faith, so no matter what happens you have to believe.

Originally posted by knightmeister
That's the way it will always be to a certain extent. However , arrogant though it may sound to Atheists , I feel that I understand it from both sides of the fence. And I know that I've found something incredible , precious and real in Jesus that I didn't even know I was missing. Something that I know that if you got a taste of it you would not talk the way you do on these forums.

How do you deal with the athiest who was once a thiest and has now seen where the light is actually coming from.

Originally posted by Agerg
You talk as if we're consciously trying to avoid believing in your "God" when it is more the case that we simply cannot. Indeed how long would it take you to convince yourself you're the Gingerbread Man? Is it the case you avoid believing as such!?

Acknowledging some insignificant level of doubt that I could be wrong (smaller than I can anything I can appre ...[text shortened]... t. Similarly, with slightly more doubt, you are confident you're not the Gingerbread Man.

You cannot believe in god because the god you think you are supposed to believe in is not God. There's so much misinformation out there it is very difficult to work out what "god" it is that you actually think you need to believe in in the first place.We would have to be on the same page before we could even have a discussion about it.

However , I do believe that many people avoid exposing themselves to any knowledge of the true living God because they understand somewhere in their soul that He will convict them and show them their need for repentance and Jesus. For years I avoided God because I didn't want Him interfering with my life because I (mistakenly) thought my life belonged to me (as if I had created myself). I also didn't want to give up my sin and my self oriented life. I wanted to hold on to my life. I knew somewhere that if the Holy Spirit got involved then he would want to re-arrange the furniture and turn me into someone who I had never dreamed of being.

Don't you understand that God's holiness and truth has such a purity and conviction about it that when you get in touch with his Spirit you will shake and tremble with fear and understand the true depths of your own sin?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i thought it was supposed to be blind faith, so no matter what happens you have to believe.

Do you really think this or are you being rhetorical?

Faith is not blind , it's holding on to what you have accepted as truth when other factors try to get in the way. For example , I have total faith that my wife is the right person for me , but on occasions it can seem as if other women might be better for me or more attractive etc etc. I know this isn't true so I hold on to my marriage because I have faith in it.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
How do you deal with the athiest who was once a thiest and has now seen where the light is actually coming from.

Are you such a person?

All I would say is that what I have experienced of God's love is such that it has changed my life irrevocably. I would ask such an atheist what their experience of God's love was. Anyone who has properly got in touch with God would never forget it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You cannot believe in god because the god you think you are supposed to believe in is not God. There's so much misinformation out there it is very difficult to work out what "god" it is that you actually think you need to believe in in the first place.We would have to be on the same page before we could even have a discussion about it.

But how do you know that the god you admit to deluding yourself into believing in is the real God? Does the delusion not work for other gods? Why does every deluded theist I meet give me a unique description of his delusion, and what makes yours more likely to be an actual representation of reality as opposed to someone elses?

Are some delusions harder to obtain than others? If so, why?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But how do you know that the god you admit to deluding yourself into believing in is the real God? Does the delusion not work for other gods? Why does every deluded theist I meet give me a unique description of his delusion, and what makes yours more likely to be an actual representation of reality as opposed to someone elses?

Are some delusions harder to obtain than others? If so, why?

But how do you know that the god you admit to deluding yourself into believing in is the real God?

-----------------------------whitey-------------------------------

I did not say this exactly and I think you are being playful with me in saying this. That's Ok whitey.

Let me put it another way. I think that the self delusion argument is a truism. It is a possibility for all of us. Human beings (theists and atheists) have the ability the self deceive.

The question you raise is basically a Socratic one. How can we know what we know? How can we be sure? But there also other questions. Should we wait until we are "sure" before we step forward? Is there only one way to know things? etc etc

Philosophically we cannot prove or know for sure that we even exist or are not in a holographic universe.