20 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadI should be somewhat concerned that I may be equally susceptible to delusion.
No, I don't think it does.
[b]You can say that I am deluded and you are not and I can say the reverse. It doesn't prove anything.
Did I try to use it as a proof for anything?
It also sounds as if you don't have a lot of faith in your own ability to be able to explore the idea of God without being deluded - but why?
Because it is clear t elps your case. If anything it makes my worry about being deluded even more valid.[/b]
------------whitey-------------------------------------------
But only in certain respects according to what you decide is deluded or not? In which case you make a prior assumption and rule out the possibility that you might already be deluded. Is that not also fairly egotistical? What you fail to grasp is that being susceptible to delusion is a truism and I agree with the above , but not when it is applied only selectively.
If anything it makes my worry about being deluded even more valid.-----------------------------------------------whitey-----------------------------------------
And so you should be afraid. However, your fear seems to be selective according to your preset world view. I'm not suggesting you don't be afraid , I'm just saying be even handed in your fear.
Bear in mind that God knows your fears of being deluded. He understands them better than you do. He doesn't want you to go insane or lose your mind. He's ok with being questioned and doubted - He's big enough to take it.
I am still waiting for you to answer the question as to why you didn't pop the Muslim pill. -----------whitey -------------------
I'm answering that one with karoly - have a look at it
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by RJHindsYou're like a hermit crab that lives in a book. I used to be a hermit crab too. But then the book got too little as I began to grow so I looked for a bigger one, then later an even bigger one,etc. until finally I got out into the direct light and found it was better to be in the direct light than to stay living inside of a big book, no matter what the risks 🙂
How am I to know? It didn't happen and there is nothing in the Holy Bible
about it that I am aware of. 😏
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by ZahlanziDont be sure you will find it when you die either, but you are right , it is the looking that is important😵
i am looking for god because i believe i owe him one for creating the universe and he is love. i don't need to find him in this lifetime, it is the search that is important and the faith he is out there. i am going to find him when i die. by looking for him i live a good life which takes care of the worthiness. and before you raise the point that atheists l ...[text shortened]... is the bacon of my life, it makes everything better and when taken in moderation, all is good.
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by AgergYou believe some invisible friend in the sky exists, you believe this invisible friend has a particular set of characteristics that differentiate it from other invisible friends (which from your point of view would be false or imaginary friends); you believe this on no more evidence than faith (i.e. blind belief backed up with whatever physical and emotional cues you generate from [WORD TOO LONG]
As far as discerning delusion goes, it's quite simple. Indeed let us restrict our conversation here to the set of all delusions as they pertain to religion. You believe some invisible friend in the sky exists, you believe this invisible friend has a particular set of characteristics that differentiate it from other invisible friends (which from your point of v ...[text shortened]... the word deluded do you use to conclude that it is we atheists who suffer all the delusions? 😕
There's so much more to it than you understand - but what would be the point in trying to explain it? - at this point in your life you are not open to it , I can tell.
Can you not see that all of the above is based on your own assumptions about faith? From the outside in I can see why you think some of these things. It makes sense if you have made intellect/science your false idol and elevated it way above any other forms of knowing to the point where you dismiss or mock anything to the contrary.
Despite what you say , as long as you live , the Holy Spirit will convict your soul and make you restless for God in a place in your heart you can't even begin to understand yet.
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhy do you say that?
But only in certain respects according to what you decide is deluded or not?
In which case you make a prior assumption and rule out the possibility that you might already be deluded.
I do not rule it out. I made that quite clear in my previous post.
Is that not also fairly egotistical?
I think some amount of ego is a necessary fact. We all believe we are correct about some things. How can we not? Kelly tries to make out that everyone's beliefs are equal and we are all just making random guesses out of the dark, but even he probably thinks he is correct.
And so you should be afraid. However, your fear seems to be selective according to your preset world view.
I disagree.
Bear in mind that God knows your fears of being deluded.
Now you are loosing the thread. How could I 'bear in mind' something I believe to be a delusion? Are you going to 'bear in mind' that God doesn't actually exist? Or are you attempting to deliberately delude me?
I'm answering that one with karoly - have a look at it
I think I have read most of the posts of yours to him and I don't think you have answered it. Can you answer it addressed to my question.
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterYes, when logic fails, pull the hypothetical future scenario out of your hat together with "you feel something you don't know you feel".
Despite what you say , as long as you live , the Holy Spirit will convict your soul and make you restless for God in a place in your heart you can't even begin to understand yet.
Its nonsense and I think you know it (not in some corner of your heart where you cant quite see, but in your brain, plain as daylight). Its certainly not worth mentioning. Its unconformable even by the person you are addressing and blatantly unknowable to you.
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt's shame that you don't have more respect for different ways of knowing or understanding existence. Spirituality in general has much to offer the world in it's wisdom and depth of knowledge. Spiritual or transpersonal traditions have always emerged in all cultures as a form of mysticism or "gnosis".
Yes, when logic fails, pull the hypothetical future scenario out of your hat together with "you feel something you don't know you feel".
Its nonsense and I think you know it (not in some corner of your heart where you cant quite see, but in your brain, plain as daylight). Its certainly not worth mentioning. Its unconformable even by the person you are addressing and blatantly unknowable to you.
These disciplines (such as Buddhist enlightenment , lslamic sufism , Christianity) run deep in our culture and can't just be dismissed as "nonsense" by anyone with a shred of open mindedness. You sound very narrow in your thinking and closed to any form of understanding other than pure logic and science.
For example - what do you think of these quotes by Einstein....?
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think I have read most of the posts of yours to him and I don't think you have answered it. Can you answer it addressed to my question.
Why do you say that?
[b]In which case you make a prior assumption and rule out the possibility that you might already be deluded.
I do not rule it out. I made that quite clear in my previous post.
Is that not also fairly egotistical?
I think some amount of ego is a necessary fact. We all believe we are correct about some things. How ca ...[text shortened]... him and I don't think you have answered it. Can you answer it addressed to my question.[/b]
-------------------------whitey-----------------------------
I'm waiting for him to respond before I take it further. I would prefer to save time by doing it only once - or are you going to say I'm being evasive?
20 Feb 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadOh well , I'll have ago at it then.
Why do you say that?
[b]In which case you make a prior assumption and rule out the possibility that you might already be deluded.
I do not rule it out. I made that quite clear in my previous post.
Is that not also fairly egotistical?
I think some amount of ego is a necessary fact. We all believe we are correct about some things. How ca ...[text shortened]... him and I don't think you have answered it. Can you answer it addressed to my question.[/b]
The Muslim pill wan't an option because
a) It's answer to man's salvation was based on what we do rather than on what God does for us (eg Judaic legalism versus the Gospel of grace)
b) It's approach to Jesus seemed highly disingenuous because Jesus clearly claimed divinity for himself (which is totally preposterous in Islam) but Islam still holds him in high respect as a "prophet" - which is patronizing to Jesus. I would have had more respect for Islam if it had denounced him.
c) The emphasis on love and forgiveness is not there in Islam as it is in Christianity.
d) Mohammed's claims pale in comparison to Jesus
e) In Christianity God enters into our suffering and sin , in Christ God gets his hands dirty and is not remote.
f) Christianity has a much clearer and explicit theology of the Holy Spirit and God's presence with man - which made far more sense to me of the spiritual experiences I was having.
g) Islam is just too much like a copy of Judaism - it has the same features and the same legalistic approach. The NT is what makes Christianity and gives it the edge because it goes that one vital step further.
I could go on but does it sound as if I have logical and reasonable reasons for not taking the Muslim pill?
21 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterI don't have respect for them for good reason. Science has shown time and again that they are not reliable. In fact, they themselves, by coming up with illogical results and contradictory results have shown themselves to be unreliable.
It's shame that you don't have more respect for different ways of knowing or understanding existence.
These disciplines (such as Buddhist enlightenment , lslamic sufism , Christianity) run deep in our culture and can't just be dismissed as "nonsense" by anyone with a shred of open mindedness.
I don't necessarily dismiss them as entirely nonsense, but neither do I take everything in them as factual.
You sound very narrow in your thinking and closed to any form of understanding other than pure logic and science.
And you sound very confused in your thinking when you accept illogical claims.
For example - what do you think of these quotes by Einstein....?
No you want to play the old "if your not a theist your are a materialist machine" card? Not so. I too have a sense of wonder, I too fall in love, I too experience emotions.
21 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterActually it makes no sense at all. You start by telling us about a catch 22 where you must take the pill before knowing whether it is true or not.
I could go on but does it sound as if I have logical and reasonable reasons for not taking the Muslim pill?
Now you seem to have chosen the Pill that either appealed to you the most. What is not clear is whether it appealed to you because you think it is factual, or it appealed to you aesthetically. Did you choose the God you like, or the God you thought actually existed?
Its also interesting that all your 'reasons' are stated as someone who believes in Christianity already and is essentially saying 'well thats just not Christian'. You don't state them as someone who has a Christian pill and a Muslim pill and has to choose.
21 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou are being gracious.
But how do you know that the god you admit to deluding yourself into believing in is the real God?
-----------------------------whitey-------------------------------
I did not say this exactly and I think you are being playful with me in saying this. That's Ok whitey.
Let me put it another way. I think that the self delusion argument is a tr ...[text shortened]... lly we cannot prove or know for sure that we even exist or are not in a holographic universe.
We both know that Christ is the Son of God. It requires far more energy to not believe this than to believe it now.
21 Feb 12
Originally posted by kevcvs57Sorry mate. I cant sift through all that , not to mention KM has a way all of his own of telling us how it is, so I dont know how it would benefit anyone for me to give my 3rd party opinion on your guys' posts. I would just prolly convolute it more.
I dont understand it either it's like somebody is reading what i've posted putting it in a bin and responding to something else completely; maybe we would both profit from a third party looking at our posts on this matter and illuminating us, I appreciate it's a big ask so no pressure we may have to agree to differ and move on.
I think Islam circumvents ...[text shortened]... et of instructions from said entity in the form of the koran; but obviously I could be wrong.