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Originally posted by kevcvs57I understand what you mean about the unopened box. But is this not true for all of us? It's a truism so I left it out. I have yet to be presented with any reasonable atheistic explanation for what I have experienced of God's presence , so until someone opens that box I also remain unmoved.
You omitted the part where I said" until somebody opens a previously unopened box "etc. Thats tantamount to 'bearing false witness' and thats not cricket either It would appear that adhering to the bible produces a less honest approach to life than adhering to the rules of cricket. But I could be wrong. I thought purposely misleading edits of peoples posts ...[text shortened]... upon, I can only assume from your behaviour that you take the same approach with the bible.
Look , how about we bury the hatchet on this. I don't think that you are being dishonest or deliberately misleading about anything. I think we can all be contradictory at times an everyone's world view has it's strong points and weak points. I've done it myself. It's not a personal attack.
I believe that you earnestly hold your position in good faith. Yes, I have been playful with you at times but that's part of the banter when people debate , yes? I hope that you can accept that I haven't intentionally misrepresented you - earlier , I was in fact honestly confused by what I thought your position was.
It's very easy to read into what people say on this forum. To use a cricket analogy I think we are all guilty of some gamesmanship , but ball tampering , no ?
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe risk of getting my self deluded seems pretty steep. -----whitey-----
So, why didn't you take the Muslim pill? Is their God not worth knowing?
[b]After all what does one have to lose? If you ask God to reveal his Spirit to you and absolutely nothing happens then no big loss there. Do you fear that something might happen?
One has his sanity to loose. There is no doubt in my mind that you are deluded. There is also no ...[text shortened]... dily study your religion, I would however never consider taking part in self delusion attempts.[/b]
KM RESPONSE -----But this premise excludes the possibility that you might already be deluded. You can say that I am deluded and you are not and I can say the reverse. It doesn't prove anything. It also sounds as if you don't have a lot of faith in your own ability to be able to explore the idea of God without being deluded - but why? If you don't trust your own cognitive abilities to discern these things then how do you know you are not already deluded?
Even you, if you are honest, must admit that all those members of other religions are at least partially deluded. Do you not worry that you will join them? ----whitey----------
KM RESPONSE - yes , but I am also aware that me "worrying about being deluded" is also itself be a delusion. I spent many years in darkness because I was worried about being deluded into thinking Jesus was for real. Then I realized that my "worry" was in itself a delusion to keep me away from facing what I knew was the truth. It works both ways.
Please try and understand that Christianity is actually very hot on delusions , deceptions and untruths. It's very starting point is that man is under delusion from the day he is born - (what Buddhists would call maya or a state of un-elightenment ). All spiritual traditions have the idea of man being in some kind of spiritual darkness before the light arrives.
Originally posted by karoly aczelThere is no maybe about it. None of us have an "entirely correct" idea of
Maybe your idea of God is not entirely correct and therefor thats why you have mixed beliefs.
Would you say "about Him"? or "about It"?
God. We only seek to get as close as we can and the Holy Bible and the
Holy Spirit is our guide to do just that. 😏
Originally posted by knightmeisterMaybe I should have explained that I work 12hr shifts and sometimes only get 4-5hrs sleep; and I know I can be a short fuesd and caustic. However I am never too tired to bury a hatchet they are the worst possible tool for a productive debate. As for standing behind your relationship with god; so would I if I had one; I dont reject your story per-se just as objective/unopened box type evidence.
I understand what you mean about the unopened box. But is this not true for all of us? It's a truism so I left it out. I have yet to be presented with any reasonable atheistic explanation for what I have experienced of God's presence , so until someone opens that box I also remain unmoved.
Look , how about we bury the hatchet on this. I don' ...[text shortened]... et analogy I think we are all guilty of some gamesmanship , but ball tampering , no ?
P.s theres a thread "christian to athiest" where the agnostics seem to be getting attacked from both sides, or I'm getting tired again.
Originally posted by kevcvs57All you atheists remind me of the guy who acts like he is a tough guy. 😏
If you are not winding me up then , joking apart, you should think about a brain scan I am beginning to get concerned for you, your seeing a paradox where no paradox exists. I am not like you Knightmeister I am not scared of uncertainty. there is no paradox in thinking/believing that absolute truths are unknowable but obviously I could be wrong I allow myse ...[text shortened]... ox where one certainly dos'nt exist. BTW I can keep this up at least as long as you (I think).
Originally posted by karoly aczelIslam is a Satan inspired religion to counter Christianity. This is as direct and
No , I am not a Muslim.
I just look at the basic evidence.
I have read some amazing things attributed to some sufi poets as well as some Zen masters. As profound as Jesus's. But maybe our opinions differ here as to what we think is "astonishing and breath taking".
I cant enlighten you about Mohammed, but facts remain. Their is a huge religion c ...[text shortened]... eem acknowledge agnosticism the same way that he does (if I understand you 2 correctly)
as simple as I can put it to you, for it is an anti-Christ religion.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAs far as discerning delusion goes, it's quite simple. Indeed let us restrict our conversation here to the set of all delusions as they pertain to religion. You believe some invisible friend in the sky exists, you believe this invisible friend has a particular set of characteristics that differentiate it from other invisible friends (which from your point of view would be false or imaginary friends); you believe this on no more evidence than faith (i.e. blind belief backed up with whatever physical and emotional cues you generate from within). We on the other hand, lacking such cues, and acknowledging the complete lack of evidence fail to have belief.
The risk of getting my self deluded seems pretty steep. -----whitey-----
KM RESPONSE -----But this premise excludes the possibility that you might already be deluded. You can say that I am deluded and you are not and I can say the reverse. It doesn't prove anything. It also sounds as if you don't have a lot of faith in your own ability to be able t ...[text shortened]... have the idea of man being in some kind of spiritual darkness before the light arrives.
So what bizarro definition of the word deluded do you use to conclude that it is we atheists who suffer all the delusions? 😕
Originally posted by RJHindsA muslim would say it's easy to tell the truth when you've got the Koran and the inspiration of the prophet Mohhamed with you.
It is easy to tell the truth when one has the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit as
his guide. 😏
Do you know for sure that you would not have been a Muslim if you were born in an Islamic country? Dont lie now
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Originally posted by karoly aczelHow am I to know? It didn't happen and there is nothing in the Holy Bible
A muslim would say it's easy to tell the truth when you've got the Koran and the inspiration of the prophet Mohhamed with you.
Do you know for sure that you would not have been a Muslim if you were born in an Islamic country? Dont lie now
about it that I am aware of. 😏
Originally posted by JS357i am looking for god because i believe i owe him one for creating the universe and he is love. i don't need to find him in this lifetime, it is the search that is important and the faith he is out there. i am going to find him when i die. by looking for him i live a good life which takes care of the worthiness. and before you raise the point that atheists live the good life without looking for god, i would say that atheism is kinda like vegetarianism, sure, you may live good and healthy, but it is not for everyone. god is the bacon of my life, it makes everything better and when taken in moderation, all is good.... i can say the higgs boson doesn't exist because there is no proof of it, yet scientists are looking for it. why should god be any less worthy of looking for him?
Accepting for the sake of argument that the word "worthy" applies to the justification for looking for the higgs boson:
The HB is consider "worthy" of being looked for becaus ...[text shortened]... hings are required to make looking for the HB worthy of, for example, funding and effort.
Originally posted by knightmeisterNo, I don't think it does.
But this premise excludes the possibility that you might already be deluded.
You can say that I am deluded and you are not and I can say the reverse. It doesn't prove anything.
Did I try to use it as a proof for anything?
It also sounds as if you don't have a lot of faith in your own ability to be able to explore the idea of God without being deluded - but why?
Because it is clear to me that the majority of people on this planet are deluded. Unless I have a huge ego, I should be somewhat concerned that I may be equally susceptible to delusion.
If you don't trust your own cognitive abilities to discern these things then how do you know you are not already deluded?
I cant be sure. But I am fairly confident. Mostly, I find my arguments to be more logical and sensible than those of people I believe to be deluded. I do not need to lie, deceive, avoid etc to support my claims. They usually do. Also I can support my current understanding of the universe with evidence, they can't.
KM RESPONSE - yes , but I am also aware that me "worrying about being deluded" is also itself be a delusion. I spent many years in darkness because I was worried about being deluded into thinking Jesus was for real. Then I realized that my "worry" was in itself a delusion to keep me away from facing what I knew was the truth. It works both ways.
That doesn't make sense I'm afraid.
I am still waiting for you to answer the question as to why you didn't pop the Muslim pill.
Please try and understand that Christianity is actually very hot on delusions , deceptions and untruths. It's very starting point is that man is under delusion from the day he is born - (what Buddhists would call maya or a state of un-elightenment ). All spiritual traditions have the idea of man being in some kind of spiritual darkness before the light arrives.
I don't think that helps your case. If anything it makes my worry about being deluded even more valid.