The Atheist and God

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I wonder what he meant by "offend".

There must be degrees of damnation if suicide is preferable to child molestation from a hereafter perspective.

Was that where the idea of Purgatory came from?

He probably meant what He said.

And no, that has nothing to do with Purgatory.

Originally posted by dj2becker
He probably meant what He said.

And no, that has nothing to do with Purgatory.

I'm absolutely sure he meant what he said. Now what do you think he meant?

What are your thoughts on Purgatory?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'm absolutely sure he meant what he said. Now what do you think he meant?

What are your thoughts on Purgatory?

It might be more helpful to look at the origional Greek. Another translation uses the phrase, "cause to stumble".

Concerning Purgatory I think the following words of Christ are clear enough:

Matthew 18:8 - Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 3:17 - Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I personally cannot see from any of Christ's words that Purgatory exists.

Originally posted by dj2becker
It might be more helpful to look at the origional Greek. Another translation uses the phrase, "cause to stumble".

Concerning Purgatory I think the following words of Christ are clear enough:

Matthew 18:8 - Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, r ...[text shortened]... quenchable.

I personally cannot see from any of Christ's words that Purgatory exists.
[/b]

We all know Christ spoke Greek, don't we?

Have you heard of the Sect of the Holy Stumpers? They tended to interpret the Holy Word rather literally, so whenever their hands or feet "caused them to stumble" (in the dark, or even getting off the bus) they would lop them off straightaway.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III

Personally, I find Purgatory one of the RCC's more civilised inventions.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 8:12 - Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life ...[text shortened]... e: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

you take the Mark passage out of context.

and until you begin to see what He meant when he said "word" you won't begin to understand the Luke passage.

It' not for me, or anybody, to explain it to you either, you must find it yourself, but I will say this: there is only one word of the Kingdom it's not hard to find if you seek it and it's not about belief.
It is what it is.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I find it rather telling that you cannot read and understand the scriptures.

Now then how's this for your security?

Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

There's more to reading than mouthing the words DJ. Knowing what the words mean is more important. Taking snippets of the message out of context to "prove" some "knowlege" is not knowing but is rather, a fools errand.

Originally posted by Halitose
Then read carefully, because in His defence, he is affirming that [b]for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.[/b]

It's your reading of it thats in error , but then your entire understanding full of error.

Originally posted by frogstomp
you take the Mark passage out of context.

and until you begin to see what He meant when he said "word" you won't begin to understand the Luke passage.

It' not for me, or anybody, to explain it to you either, you must find it yourself, but I will say this: there is only one word of the Kingdom it's not hard to find if you seek it and it's not about belief.
It is what it is.

you take the Mark passage out of context.

In what way is it out of context?

and until you begin to see what He meant when he said "word" you won't begin to understand the Luke passage.

As if you understand it. Pray explain to me how you would like to believe in the "word" without believing in Him that spoke the "word"?

It' not for me, or anybody, to explain it to you either, you must find it yourself..

Wrong again. It is only the Holy Spirit of God that can explain the meaning of the words, and He has clearly not explained them to you.

but I will say this: there is only one word of the Kingdom it's not hard to find if you seek it and it's not about belief. It is what it is.

So if the word of the Kingdom is not about belief then why talk about it as if you believe it?

Originally posted by dj2becker


So if the word of the Kingdom is not about belief then why talk about it as if you believe it?

Don't be a believer: be.
It's for free.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Don't be a believer: be.
It's for free.

Being a believer in Jesus Christ is not for free. The salvation He grants is for free, but to get it will cost you everything. (That is if you believe in the same Christ that I do, the one that has the ability to set you free from the bondage of sin.)

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]you take the Mark passage out of context.

In what way is it out of context?

and until you begin to see what He meant when he said "word" you won't begin to understand the Luke passage.

As if you understand it. Pray explain to me how you would like to believe in the "word" without believing in Him that spoke t ...[text shortened]...
So if the word of the Kingdom is not about belief then why talk about it as if you believe it?[/b]

once more you spout off your lack of understanding, read youre Mark passage in context and then shutup , you aint god or a messenger.

Originally posted by frogstomp
once more you spout off your lack of understanding, read youre Mark passage in context and then shutup , you aint god or a messenger.

Btw, I did read the Mark passage in context. I am afraid you are the one taking it out of context. The very fact that you fail to show me in what way I took it out of context as well as your rude reply proves it.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on ...[text shortened]... o live a good life."

- Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium. Vatican II

so faith in god is not a necessary condition for salvation?

is this all just a fancy way of saying 'out of sight, out of mind'? because it reads as purposefully vague IMO.