1. Joined
    24 Apr '05
    Moves
    3061
    07 Aug '05 06:59
    Matthew 25:35-40:

    "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
    When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
    Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me."

    Assuming the christian god exists, do you agree or disagree with the following claims?
    1. salvation hinges not on whether or not you know god, but on whether or not god knows you.
    2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
  2. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    07 Aug '05 09:15
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Matthew 25:35-40:

    "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [ ...[text shortened]... on whether or not god knows you.
    2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
    amen
  3. Standard memberDavid C
    Flamenco Sketches
    Spain, in spirit
    Joined
    09 Sep '04
    Moves
    59422
    07 Aug '05 10:31
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Assuming the christian god exists, do you agree or disagree with the following claims?
    1. salvation hinges not on whether or not you know god, but on whether or not god knows you.
    2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.[/b]
    It looks to me like Matt is saying, "Works, not just faith".

  4. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148419
    07 Aug '05 12:42
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Matthew 25:35-40:

    "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [ ...[text shortened]... on whether or not god knows you.
    2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
    You want to claim you are known by someone you do not believe in?
    Kelly
  5. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    07 Aug '05 12:421 edit
    Originally posted by David C
    It looks to me like Matt is saying, "Works, not just faith".

    just deeds, "works" are miracles.. and "faith" ,not mentioned in the quoted post , was used by Christ only in the conjunction with miracles .I would imagine if Christ had intended to include belief in God as a pre-requisite for salvation, he would have said so here, since he was talking specificly about judgment day.
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148419
    07 Aug '05 12:44
    Originally posted by David C
    It looks to me like Matt is saying, "Works, not just faith".

    Works follow faith, faith without works is dead; however, if you are
    speaking about what is going to get you into heaven, you better
    not be relying on your 'works' to justify you.
    Kelly
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148419
    07 Aug '05 12:45
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    just deeds, "works" are miracles.. and "faith" ,not mentioned in the quoted post , was used only in the conjunction with miracles by Christ .I would imagine if Christ had intended to include belief in God as a pre-requisite for salvation, he would have said so here, since he was talking specificly about judgment day.
    One piece of one conversation is not enough, you need to read all
    that Jesus said on the matter.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    07 Aug '05 13:18
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    One piece of one conversation is not enough, you need to read all
    that Jesus said on the matter.
    Kelly
    show me where Christ says differently, remember you are saying that belief is a prerequisite for salvation. That's a high bar to reach , since it's implying Christ must have forgotten to mention belief.
  9. London
    Joined
    02 Mar '04
    Moves
    36061
    07 Aug '05 14:11
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Matthew 25:35-40:

    "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [ ...[text shortened]... on whether or not god knows you.
    2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
    There seems to be a little bit of word-play going on here (which is nice to the ear, I'll admit) - the word "know" is being used in two senses in your questions.

    1. salvation hinges not on whether or not you know god, but on whether or not god knows you.

    The first "know" (man knowing God) is, I presume, being used in the sense of believing in God. The second "know" (God knowing man) is being used in the sense of the Bible passage quoted; i.e. God acknowledging or accepting man into his kingdom.

    So, does the salvation of a person depend on his/her belief in God or God's acceptance of the person into Heaven? In a sense, I would have to say, both. Of course no man can be saved unless he has God's grace; but neither can a man open himself to that grace if he wilfully and knowingly rejects God. So, an atheist who, to his dying breath, refuses even to say "If there is a God out there, I'm sorry!" has cut himself off from God's grace forever (no matter how "nice" a person he was in life - no man can ever do enough good to 'merit' salvation).

    2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.

    I neither agree nor disagree with this statement. For two reasons - one, I do not know what state of soul any atheist has died in. Two, only God knows who's been saved and who's not.

    Incidentally, your term "better known" belies the wordplay here. If you're using the word "know" as a synonym for partaking of God's grace, then it makes no sense to say one person is "better known" than another.
  10. Joined
    21 Oct '04
    Moves
    17038
    07 Aug '05 16:42
    Originally posted by David C
    It looks to me like Matt is saying, "Works, not just faith".

    You will be judged by your works, but you are saved by faith. If you really have faith, you will have works
  11. Standard memberHalitose
    I stink, ergo I am
    On the rebound
    Joined
    14 Jul '05
    Moves
    4464
    07 Aug '05 17:06
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    show me where Christ says differently, remember you are saying that belief is a prerequisite for salvation. That's a high bar to reach , since it's implying Christ must have forgotten to mention belief.
    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  12. Joined
    24 Apr '05
    Moves
    3061
    07 Aug '05 17:45
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You want to claim you are known by someone you do not believe in?
    Kelly
    no. i want to understand why and if faith in god is a necessary condition for salvation. there is a bigger picture here than just 'LemonJello wants some salvation but doesn't want to work for it'.

    chew on this: there are hords of people in the world who have never seen a bible, have no clue who the christian god allegedly is, and probably will never have the means to 'know' god. there are still many others who have been trained by social custom and influenced by their family to adopt religions other than christianity (without giving christianity much or any time or reflection). in some sense, all these people are basically implicit atheists with respect to the christian god.

    IF 1. faith in your god is a necessary condition for entrance into heaven and 2. the only alternative to heaven is hell, THEN i would have to conclude that all these 'atheists' (billions, probably) are destined to be chucked into the fires like weeds pulled from the garden, with no nevermind given to the manners in which they carried themselves.

    the main content of this thread is in the first claim; the second was rather tongue-in-cheek. i think most christians would say that faith and deeds are both necessary for salvation; but i am wondering why faith is necessary at all.

    there are, of course, fundamental differences between the implicit atheist and the explicit or critical atheist. however, if faith turns out to not be necessary for salvation, then i don't see why god would prejudge one and not the other -- is god really that proud?
  13. Joined
    24 Apr '05
    Moves
    3061
    07 Aug '05 17:512 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    thanks for your post.

    So, an atheist who, to his dying breath, refuses even to say "If there is a God out there, I'm sorry!" has cut himself off from God's grace forever

    what about the implicit atheist?

  14. Joined
    24 Apr '05
    Moves
    3061
    07 Aug '05 17:58
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    when you witness to others (say, someone who has never heard of the christian god), which do you consider more important: informing them of their need to acknowledge jesus, or informing them of their need to be like jesus? which is more important: faith or deeds?
  15. Standard memberHalitose
    I stink, ergo I am
    On the rebound
    Joined
    14 Jul '05
    Moves
    4464
    07 Aug '05 18:07
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    when you witness to others (say, someone who has never heard of the christian god), which do you consider more important: informing them of their need to acknowledge jesus, or informing them of their need to be like jesus? which is more important: faith or deeds?
    Acknowledging Jesus and accepting him as your Saviour is just the first step of becoming more like him.
Back to Top