Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you cannot use a blanket statement like "we christians" to describe the standard of not worshiping the bible. first, you're not a christian, but even if you were, there certainly exist christian groups who do idolize particular translations (kjv for instance) of the bible.

Those Christian groups do not idolize the KJV of the Holy Bible. They merely hold it in reverence. That is, they have deep respect for it. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Those Christian groups do not idolize the KJV of the Holy Bible. They merely hold it in reverence. That is, they have deep respect for it. 🙄

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

no, the ones i'm talking about go beyond having a reverence for the icon. the kjv only crowd, they certainly idolize their bible.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
no, the ones i'm talking about go beyond having a reverence for the icon. the kjv only crowd, they certainly idolize their bible.

That is a clear example of idolatry of a book. They don't just revere it, as you say. Because words and languages shift over the years, (underlying the humanity of the sacred book and its conditionality) the KJV-ers try to have one version alone and declare it THE one with all the right words and verses. 'You can't change the very Word of God like that!'

The Old Testament came to us mainly in Hebrew. I expect that differs from modern Hebrew too. Jesus spoke Aramaic. The early New Testament literature was in Greek. Then it was in ecclesastical Latin for centuries. Blocking the translation path makes the Bible less clear, less helpful to the Christian faithful and maintains an idolatrous view.

Originally posted by Taoman


Which is a real problem if you think the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, perfect Word of God.

The thing is, the Bible doesn’t make this claim about itself. The Bible makes this claim about Jesus Christ. The Bible doesn’t claim to be the Word of God. It says Jesus is. According to John 1.1, Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus is the perfect, inerrant, i ...[text shortened]... ible Word of God. The Bible also tells us that nothing and no one is perfect, except God alone..

I disagree...

Ps 138:2
I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
NKJV

Gal 1:11-12
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
NKJV

2 Peter 1:19-21
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you cannot use a blanket statement like "we christians" to describe the standard of not worshiping the bible. first, you're not a christian, but even if you were, there certainly exist christian groups who do idolize particular translations (kjv for instance) of the bible.

I think you mean "idealize", maybe, not "idolize".

For instance, my faith has adopted the KJV as its "Bible of choice", as it were, and I might agree that I am guilty of some degree of "idealization" of it, I do not agree that I "idolize" it in any way. There are certain people here, namely the ones who are always spouting, "But that's not in the Bible!" who may be guilty of a certain amount of idolatry regarding the Bible. I've called them out on it long before this thread.

Again, though, it amazes me to no end when atheists maintain that someone is "not a christian" (small c, of course, that says volumes), like they are an expert about what it means to be a Christian.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I disagree...

Ps 138:2
I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
NKJV

Gal 1:11-12
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was ...[text shortened]... came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Firstly, the Psalm quote is from a song of praise to God. It is not a theological treatise.
Secondly the term "word" is not used there in the sense of referring to a book, least of all a book that at the time at least half of it was yet to become part of the collected literature called the (Christian) Bible. The term "word" was referring to the great message of realization that YHWH " - I AM THAT I AM was NOT contained in idols, gold - or of paper.

Now that's MY opinion over against YOURS. That means the Bible and its message is conditional on human interpretation, like every other piece of literature of any religion or philosophy. Not acknowledging that and treating it as from the very mouth of God, as is, and out of its contexts IS idolatry.
It replaces the Living Spirit of "God" (That is your way of saying something that is seen differently in Buddhism, but they are close in what they are referring to) - it replaces the Living Spirit of "God" available everywhere and through all books and even grafitti on a wall, which is closed off, for fundamentalist Christian at least, who think and preach that God can only speak one way through a collected set of ancient and historically conditioned literature. [Transfer the same issue to fundamenatalist Judaeism or Islamism] The awful bloodshed by such thinking is abhorrent!

The quotation from Galatians is referring to the emerging Christian message becoming enriched by Gnostic-influenced mythology . A mythology full of deep meanings, that can still touch any heart if approached without getting attached to a legalistc view of scriptures and theological rigidity.

Paul, a man who grew up in a town full of Gnostics, was trying to get the important message across of the significance of Jesus, his message and his death and his life altering "resurrection" in the hearts and minds of his followers. I don't care whether you think it was literal or in their hearts - responding to his message and making it come alive again is what matters!
This "competition" of the otherworldly Gnostics was why he had to "cloth Jesus in some Gnostic clothing", much the same way as we portray Jesus as a Westerner rather than a swarthy, Middle Eastern man of lesser height than us today.

THIS was the "the revelation" - of the early church (also being referred to in the later pseudogryph of 2 Peter) -
[http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html]

a "revelation" that had built up about Jesus of Nazareth. expanding from his strong message of societal upheaval, of unselfish love for each other, of refusing to bow to the idol of Roman power (along with John the Baptist). He confronted totally, selflessly and courageously, both the cruelty of the Romans and the sophistry and nitpicking of the then small-minded religious leaders of the Jewish people, who were part of the problem, when they should have been really leading and inspiring. This is a strong simile to the Church today. Along with turning up their delicate noses at suffering prostitutes.

You can revere and love the book and the version and follow Jesus, without treating others who interpret it differently immediately "wrong" or the Bible as unquestionable or as the "ONLY".

THAT IS IDOLATRY! STOP IT!

Originally posted by Suzianne
I think you mean "idealize", maybe, not "idolize".

For instance, my faith has adopted the KJV as its "Bible of choice", as it were, and I might agree that I am guilty of some degree of "idealization" of it, I do not agree that I "idolize" it in any way. There are certain people here, namely the ones who are always spouting, "But that's not in the Bible! ...[text shortened]... at says volumes), like they are an expert about what it means to be a Christian.

I do not think there is anyone that idolizes the Holy Bible. I have never seen anyone worship it or pray to it.

Originally posted by Taoman
That is a clear example of idolatry of a book. They don't just revere it, as you say. Because words and languages shift over the years, (underlying the humanity of the sacred book and its conditionality) the KJV-ers try to have one version alone and declare it THE one with all the right words and verses. 'You can't change the very Word of God like that!'

...[text shortened]... e Bible less clear, less helpful to the Christian faithful and maintains an idolatrous view.

Jesus may have spoken many languages for all you know. You are just speaking out of your arse like Ace Ventura. 😏

YouTube

Originally posted by Taoman
Firstly, the Psalm quote is from a song of praise to God. It is not a theological treatise.
Secondly the term "word" is not used there in the sense of referring to a book, least of all a book that at the time at least half of it was yet to become part of the collected literature called the (Christian) Bible. The term "word" was referring to the great messag ible as unquestionable or as the "ONLY".

THAT IS IDOLATRY! STOP IT!

YOU STOP IT! NUMBNUTS.

We Christians do not worship or pray to a book. You are a complete idiot, if you think the Holy Bible is an idol. Your opinion does not have to be ours. But I can say with truth that you are wrong. 😏

P.S. Buddhism is a false religion. That is the Christian opinion!

Originally posted by RJHinds
YOU STOP IT! NUMBNUTS.

[b]We Christians do not worship or pray to a book. You are a complete idiot, if you think the Holy Bible is an idol. Your opinion does not have to be ours. But I can say with truth that you are wrong.
🙄

P.S. Buddhism is a false religion. That is the Christian opinion![/b]

you will find enlightenment only when you are ready to discard the physical and mental idols of your religion.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I think you mean "idealize", maybe, not "idolize".

For instance, my faith has adopted the KJV as its "Bible of choice", as it were, and I might agree that I am guilty of some degree of "idealization" of it, I do not agree that I "idolize" it in any way. There are certain people here, namely the ones who are always spouting, "But that's not in the Bible! ...[text shortened]... at says volumes), like they are an expert about what it means to be a Christian.

the first step in the cure is to recognize that you idolize it.

it shouldn't amaze you too much. the book is a guide and it tells us what to look for in a christian. however, you've missed the main point why some (including myself) declare that someone is not a christian. it is done to banish the arrogance of your beliefs and force a reexamination of your "faith."

you may deny that such is occurring, but this is something that happens subconsciously weather you admit to it or not.

of course, this is not always the case. when i declare rjhinds (specifically) as being non-christian, i mean that in the full sense. i'm convinced that he's a charlatan, a pretender.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you will find enlightenment only when you are ready to discard the physical and mental idols of your religion.

I do not care to receive enlightenment from a representative of Satan the devil, who appears as an angel of light, but comes only to steal, kill, and destroy. The Holy Bible is used to teach people to do what is right according to the will of God. The Holy Bible is not an idol to be worshipped or prayed to. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by Taoman
Firstly, the Psalm quote is from a song of praise to God. It is not a theological treatise.
Secondly the term "word" is not used there in the sense of referring to a book, least of all a book that at the time at least half of it was yet to become part of the collected literature called the (Christian) Bible. The term "word" was referring to the great messag ...[text shortened]... ible as unquestionable or as the "ONLY".

THAT IS IDOLATRY! STOP IT!

I understand that translations of the bible weaken the original words spoken by "holy men of God", however there are many other verses of scripture that declare God's Word's to be true. The original King James bible is close but not completely accurate, that is the reason for words in italics. They instruct the reader that these words are added. But in most cases they fulfill their purpose. In a few cases they disrupt the thought flow.
Having said that, there is a way for bible students to get back to the original spoken word. It is done by carefully comparing previous usages of words, understanding customs at the times words were used, etc.
One such example is Paul's "thorn in the flesh". There are many theologians that offer their opinions and even say there is no way to know. However, if you look at the previous usages of the word "thorns" , you will find they meant people.

Num 33:55

55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
KJV
People were harassing Paul....
I would also like to recommend you read "The New Testament Documents" by FF Bruce.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not think there is anyone that idolizes the Holy Bible. I have never seen anyone worship it or pray to it.

That's what I'm talking about. I do not think he means idolatry in the way that we do. That's why I said I think he means "idealization". He uses the word "idolatry" because it is a "hot-button" word for Christians. That's all.

Originally posted by RJHinds
YOU STOP IT! NUMBNUTS.

[b]We Christians do not worship or pray to a book. You are a complete idiot, if you think the Holy Bible is an idol. Your opinion does not have to be ours. But I can say with truth that you are wrong. 😏

P.S. Buddhism is a false religion. That is the Christian opinion![/b]

Again, you're not helping your position with wording like this.