the bible is immoral

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i went to school during the seventies and eighties where the focus was on creativity rather than a strict adherence to grammar, to this day both my spelling and grammar are practically useless! In fact i learned more grammar from studying a foreign language after school than i did while attending school. I am now proficient in all types of participles, although i dont think anyone learns language that way.

I learned more about English from foriegn languages than I did from an English class as well...bloody useless schools😞

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I can only suggest again that you reread my original post. I was not trying to bait you, I was merely suggesting that if you are unsure of where to use an apostrophe, you could simply refrain from using them. This was some advice that I received many years ago from a teacher I respected, and I passed it on. You are of course entitled to infer othe ...[text shortened]... rammar'. I don't think there's such a word as 'grammer'. (That was pedantic.)

please stop with the grammar nazi position. yes, it is more polite to spell correctly but this is the internet. often people post on their lunch breaks and in a hurry. if the message comes accross, who cares if the sentence starts with a capital letter or not or if i w'r'ite with appostrofes where i shouldn't.

what you are doing is allowing him to distance himself from the other more important point. the one where he claims genocide is ok if a priest says god commands it.

Today, man can push a button and in a half hour millions of people will be instantly destroyed in a hydrogen bomb.

As you can see the advancement of civilization has made modern man much less "savage".

Originally posted by RBHILL
It took you 10 months to post on this site. Welcome to the Forum.
_______________________________________________________
Genesis (9:20-27)20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brother ...[text shortened]... Ham is African people.
Shem is middle east asian and American Indian.
And Japheth is European.

I didn't see anything saying cursed be all the descendents of Ham. Nor did I read cursed be Ham. I read of a curse pronounced upon Canaan, and three other descendents of Ham were skipped over. See Genesis 10:6 - "And the sons of Ham: Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan."

This may agree with the verse that when Noah awoke and saw what his youngest son had done. Some scholars therefore regard "youngest son" to indicate the grandson, or the youngest male descendent.


By the way, the last human rebellion on earth against God is carried out by Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:6). And they are Jepthatic nations, not Hamitic.

Maybe it just went to their heads that they should expand and expand and own everything.

Originally posted by jaywill
Today, man can push a button and in a half hour millions of people will be instantly destroyed in a hydrogen bomb.

As you can see the advancement of civilization has made modern man much less "savage".

but we choose not to (with some exceptions). anywhoo does this mean you admit it was humans who were savages at jericho and not god?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
but we choose not to (with some exceptions). anywhoo does this mean you admit it was humans who were savages at jericho and not god?

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but we choose not to (with some exceptions). anywhoo does this mean you admit it was humans who were savages at jericho and not god?
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My little comment was only meant to put into realistic perspective the occasional arrogance that man is no longer prone to be inhuman, "like those people" of long ago.

Some advancement of ethics has taken place. And a whole lot of it is due to Judeo / Christian tradition - nursing, abolition, philantrophy, mental care, civil liberties.

God's judging of Jericho, was just. The ones who were left there were the hardest of the hard. They saw what was coming for about 40 years. I think the Jericho people who understood that a God with a tribe of people was coming to end their human sacrifices and other practices left that center.

When Joshua arrived there, I think only the most obstinate and stubburn were left to be executed.

Anyway, Joshua is not the last book of the Bible by any means. There is a reason, in the unfolding revelation of God's nature, that the Bible does not conclude with Joshua. And we do not see in the New Testament "Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Joshua".

I kept reading. I didn't stop my reading of this wonderful book at Joshua. I did not regard the story of Jericho as the final conclusive word on God and man in the Bible.

What do you think of the so-called "Sermon on the Mount" in Matthew 5 - 8 ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
but we choose not to (with some exceptions). anywhoo does this mean you admit it was humans who were savages at jericho and not god?
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My little comment was only meant to put into realistic perspective the occasional arrogance that man is no longer prone to be inhu ...[text shortened]...
What do you think of the so-called "Sermon on the Mount" in Matthew 5 - 8 ?[/b]

let us assume for a moment that god did order the killing of all the children, women of jericho. if the judgment of jericho was just, how come the whore was spared? was her act of treason against her people (i say it was out of cowardice) sufficient to earn her a pardon? was the 9 year old next door less worthy than her? we are talking about 40 years of wrongdoing that would doom even small children. do you think she genuinely repented and did not betray her own people out of fear of the army of israel? i say fear because that army must have been at least a tad dangerous since jericho barricaded itself behind its walls.


now let us assume for a moment that god has better things to do than smite a jew that puts lies in the bible. or maybe he intentionally allowed someone to lie in the bible as a test for us, kinda like "you're a moronic evil jerk if you think your god, the symbol of benevolence would murder deliberately little children". let us assume that joshua wanted a justification for being to lazy too try and integrate the conquered people of jericho and decided to wipe them out as "god's" plan.
suddenly, we no longer have an evil god who will kill innocent children to make room for a privileged nation. suddenly we only have barbaric people engaging in barbaric acts while god, admitely stands by and watches. free will and all that. suddenly you no longer have an act that after a while, doesn't repeat itself, not even in the old testament. not to mention we no longer have to ask ourselves how come other cities were not wiped out. there were still cannibals in the pacific. later on the assyrian empire did some nasty stuff. the romans threw christians to the lions. how come none of these got wiped out?

God's judging of Jericho, was just. The ones who were left there were the hardest of the hard. They saw what was coming for about 40 years. I think the Jericho people who understood that a God with a tribe of people was coming to end their human sacrifices and other practices left that center.

When Joshua arrived there, I think only the most obstinate and stubburn were left to be executed.


but what you say here is not in the bible. why are you assuming then? is it because you obviously see plot holes and fill them up by your reasoning? why should people leave? they thought themselves very well protected. why do you think only the most obstinate and stubborn were left? after all the israelites needed the intervention of god to tear down the walls, there must have been a pretty impressive army there.
also if you are saying that the obstinate and stubborn were in minority, why did they not change their brethren ways? why didn't god send a prophet or speak to them directly and warn them to change their ways?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
let us assume for a moment that god did order the killing of all the children, women of jericho. if the judgment of jericho was just, how come the whore was spared? was her act of treason against her people (i say it was out of cowardice) sufficient to earn her a pardon? was the 9 year old next door less worthy than her? we are talking about 40 years of wr ty stuff. the romans threw christians to the lions. how come none of these got wiped out?

suddenly, we no longer have an evil god who will kill innocent children to make room for a privileged nation. suddenly we only have barbaric people engaging in barbaric acts while god, admitely stands by and watches.

I think in this discussion it first has to be settled whether God can treated as any ordinary moral agent. When we make ethical judgments, sometimes it is necessary to consider the status of the agent -- take for example, an executioner. While you may personally abhor capital punishment, most people would not regard his action as equivalent to murder. When an ordinary man murders, that is homicide; when the state empowers the execution to kill, however, we regard this as a substantively different act (i.e. not murder.) Now in this case, a Christian might argue that God, who is not human at all, is not strictly speaking guilty of murder because his divine status substantively changes the circumstances. Because God after all gratuitously grants life, his destruction of Jericho could be interpreted otherwise as the termination of a loan, not as murder.

That's not to say that God's destruction of Jericho was morally good. I am not about to argue that God decides morality merely by arbitrary whim. My point here is that you must first establish whether God's status renders his destruction of Jericho different from, say, ethnic genocide by the Nazis. A Christian could contend that the fact that God is agent radically changes the circumstances. When the Nazis killed Jews, they destroyed life they had no legitimate claim over; when God destroyed Jericho, however, He may have such a legitimate claim.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]suddenly, we no longer have an evil god who will kill innocent children to make room for a privileged nation. suddenly we only have barbaric people engaging in barbaric acts while god, admitely stands by and watches.

I think in this discussion it first has to be settled whether God can treated as any ordinary moral agent. When we make ethical jud ...[text shortened]... itimate claim over; when God destroyed Jericho, however, He may have such a legitimate claim.[/b]

actually i am not putting god on trial. what you discussed is the legality of murder and how one can escape the consequences.


i don't care about that. i don't care that the a soldier might be free from blame if his superior officer orders him to kill an entire village. he is not, and he must have the strength to refuse following an unjust order even if it will kill him.


"I think in this discussion it first has to be settled whether God can treated as any ordinary moral agent."
you are arguing of course from the position that god indeed ordered the killing of jericho. ok let us run with that for a sec. is god exempt from following his own rules(no kill)? would god set up a rule today, break it tomorrow and enforce it after that? there is no issue of can, he can of course do that. but would a benevolent being act against the morality he himself put forth?

you might think that god had a plan. what was that? that the chosen people of the one true god, the most benevolent one, couldn't live in peace and harmony with the conquered people? that the most benevolent one only needed 40 years (as jaywill said) to doom an entire people, during which time he didn't bother to send a prophet or show himself to them.

this is mainly the position in the ot: kill any unbeliever among you. not try to convert or live in peace. jesus did things slightly different.


"My point here is that you must first establish whether God's status renders his destruction of Jericho different from, say, ethnic genocide by the Nazis"
that means you are saying that genocide is good or bad not in itself but depending on the person(s) engaging in it.

surely you must see that you are reaching here. you are like the kid who tries to push the cube through the triangle hole. just to defend the validity of a text that is contradictory. the god from the jericho period is playing favorite. doesn't want anyone but his chosen people to know him. jesus preached to the masses. he wanted romans, his people's conquerors, to be saved as well.

what is a more reasonable explanation? that men are bad and men lie? or that god changed from homocidal maniac to a caring god that wants all humans to be saved?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
actually i am not putting god on trial. what you discussed is the legality of murder and how one can escape the consequences.


i don't care about that. i don't care that the a soldier might be free from blame if his superior officer orders him to kill an entire village. he is not, and he must have the strength to refuse following an unjust order even i god changed from homocidal maniac to a caring god that wants all humans to be saved?

that means you are saying that genocide is good or bad not in itself but depending on the person(s) engaging in it.

No; I am not saying that at all. Firstly, I am playing devil's advocating, suggesting one potential course by a Christian apologist. This is not necessarily my own opinion. Secondly, my basic point was that if God commits genocide, a Christian may contend it is not in fact genocide at all -- not that God is exempt from his own moral commandments or whimsically chooses to transgress them. Since God loans the life in the first play, so the Christian reasons, the destruction of Jericho is more like a loan termination than murder.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]that means you are saying that genocide is good or bad not in itself but depending on the person(s) engaging in it.

No; I am not saying that at all. Firstly, I am playing devil's advocating, suggesting one potential course by a Christian apologist. This is not necessarily my own opinion. Secondly, my basic point was that if God commits genocide, ...[text shortened]... the Christian reasons, the destruction of Jericho is more like a loan termination than murder.[/b]

i figured you are not necessarily holding this as your own opinion.

however, even a fundamentalist cannot argue this enough
yes, god created us. yes he can terminate the loan at will. but he also submitted the idea that life , all life, is precious. after all, we are supposedly doomed for all eternity if we commit suicide. he loves us so much that he sent jesus to die on the cross for us, for all of us, not just his chosen people. so why would a god, a god that in just a few hundred years would send his son to save all mankind, be so callous with the lives of anyone but his chosen people. he tells joshua he will give him the land. and ruthlessly obliterates anyone still on it.


it just doesn't add up. fundamentalists would defend a text that makes god a murderer who changes without any reason whatsoever, vindictive, genocidal, infanticidal, etc just so the bible (that has other wonderful stuff like noah's ark and incest and 6 day creation) remains 100% accurate. me on the other hand claim that a book written ultimately by humans may in fact be lying and the supreme being will not kill children because they are in the way of his chosen people, some tribes of nomads. by my claim, god is still a benevolent being that keeps away when bad men do bad things. still bad-ish but considering the alternatives (either no free will or he is in fact the illogical murderous god of the ot) i would rather have a god who sits by and allows us to live our lives and take responsibility for our actions.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
let us assume for a moment that god did order the killing of all the children, women of jericho. if the judgment of jericho was just, how come the whore was spared? was her act of treason against her people (i say it was out of cowardice) sufficient to earn her a pardon? was the 9 year old next door less worthy than her? we are talking about 40 years of wr ty stuff. the romans threw christians to the lions. how come none of these got wiped out?

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let us assume for a moment that god did order the killing of all the children, women of jericho.
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Joshua 5:13-15 makes it clear to me that this battle was of God. The instructions on how Joshua is to take the city is given to him by God in detail (6:1-27)

Getting the biblical details (if provided) is always preferable to me then just assuming. The city seems entirely "devoted to [destruction]" (6:18). The Israelites are warned to keep themselves from anything in the city.

On this side of my spiritual experience, I tend to understand this as the whole society was consecrated and devoted to Satanic powers. Probably, the degree to which men, women, children, animals, and everything else there was designated sole property of the evil spirits would shock us.

At any rate, we are told "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city with the edge of the sword, both men and women, young and old, and oxen and sheep and donkeys." (6:21)

Terribly, terribly harsh. There is no question about that. Neither do I claim to be able to give full reason for this.

Now I will assume in the manner you also do. Probably we underestimate the degree to which this society's depth of depravity was a cancerous danger to the whole of human society on the earth.

There are many other judgments in the Old Testament. And some are tempered with more mercy then this one. Between the choices of deeming God as a unjust respector of persons and knowing in His omniscience who has descended too far for remedy, I find the latter assumption more logical.

If we gaged the degrees of severity of divine judgment in the Old Testament from, say, 1 to 10, with 10 being the harshest, I would put Jericho around 8 or 9.

As we will see one household was saved by God's grace.


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if the judgment of jericho was just, how come the whore was spared?
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I am a New Testament Christian. And the NT says that these things were written as examples to us. Surely, the salvation of Rehab and her household, is a type of salvation in Christ. This foreshadow is a window into the grace of God triumphing over judgment.

It is by no means the first window into the coming salvation in the Son of God, seen in the Old Testament. Rehab also is included in the geneology of Christ the Messiah (Matt. 1:5)

So while this is a harsh story, it is also an amazingly merciful one too. A woman who was a prostitute from a city cursed by God could nonetheless be associated with Christ. So a particularly merciful example of God's grace is also gleaned from this OT story of terrible divine judgment.

I think skeptics should spend at least equal time, to meditate on this aspect of the Jericho story.

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was her act of treason against her people (i say it was out of cowardice) sufficient to earn her a pardon?
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Rehab's act was more reasonable given that all of the Canaanites should haved realized that their evil ways were about to come to an end by the army of Jehovah God:


"And she said to the men, I know that Jehovah has given you the land, and that the dread of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt before you.... For we have heard how Jehovah dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt ... When we heard, our hearts melted; and there no longer remained any spirit in any man because of you; for Jehovah your God, He is God in heven above an upon earth beneath." (2:9,10)

That realization was 40 years ago. For 40 years they knew that Jehovah God was the God of heaven and earth and not the demonic deities to which they were sacrificing human beings. That Rehab the harlot had the good sense to repent and not go over fool's hill with the rest of the city, is not to be dispised.

Perhaps, had you been there, you would have conspired for fighting against the army of Jehovah rather than repentence ? I think had I been born in such a place, my sympathies would have been with Rehab.

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was the 9 year old next door less worthy than her? we are talking about 40 years of wrongdoing that would doom even small children.
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The death of the children is difficult for me to fully understand. I do not pretend it is easy to give an apologetic for this.

However, I take all the Bible into consideration and not just one part. Jesus said concerning Sodom (another city judged in terrible harshness):

" But into whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, Even the dust from your city which clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; yet know this, that the kingdom of God has drawn near. I say to you that it will be more tolerable for Sodom in that day than for that city." (Luke 10:10-12)

In the eternal scheme it seems that some judged in their temporal lives on earth, will fair better in eternity, then others, spared temporal judgment, yet who rejected the Gospel of Christ. The latter show up under less toleration than the former.

That 9 year old slain quickly by Joshua's soldiers may enjoy an eternal salvation in spite of this. And conversely, some who were spared a temporal execution but discarded God's gospel in Jesus Christ, fore much worse in the eternal scheme.

I consider that not all judged so harshly in time, in the Old Testament, have that judgment as an indication of their eternal destiny.

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do you think she genuinely repented and did not betray her own people out of fear of the army of israel?
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I think Rehab genuinely realized that she deserved to die under God's judgment. And I believe like Abraham, she believed God and God accounted that belief as righteousness. She was justified in her faith.

To be saved she had to remain in the house. The soldiers did not look into the house to see if good or bad people were there. Whoever remained INSIDE the house would be saved.

This was surely a window into justification in Christ's full salvation. It was one more hint, foreshadow, precursor of salvation in the Son of God. Being found in Him by faith, God's wrath will pass over us.

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i say fear because that army must have been at least a tad dangerous since jericho barricaded itself behind its walls.
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I think that God's intention was first to scatter the societal center for such evils. If 40 years before, they had seen God judge the land of Egypt with her idols, and miraculously lead His delivered nation through the Red Sea, knowing that they were coming into Canaan, the smart and godly thing to do would have been to repent. They could move out of those centers of evil.

In Canaan, I don't think God judged without previous constant warnings. We know Balaam was a Gentile prophet of God. And Jethro was a non-Jewish priest of God. So God was not without a prophetic witness to the Gentile nations completely.

We were given a view of the gradual decline of godless human societies in the flood of Noah. We already saw how violence and crime spread more and more until there was no remedy.

In Geneis God had told Abraham that He would not bring Israel into Canaan for another 400 years because the Amorites level of iniquity was not yet bad enough to merit such a judging conquest. After 400 years more of moral decline, God gave them an additional 40 years to contemplate His demonstration of miraculous judgment.

For 440 years these societies sunk deeper and deeper into the demonic, the Satanic, the abominable idolatry until some of them were devoted to God's enemy, and thus they were devoted to destruction.

Not all societies in the Old Testament merit this kind of judgment. In a book from God to man, it seems reasonable that God would be faithful to include examples that must be made known to us. And Jericho was one.

The book of Jonah seems dedicated to God's reluctance to have to judge a nation at all. In that case the prophet was all for Israel's enemies getting the judgment but God shows His merciful side. He insists that Jonah the prophet go warn them. And they DID repent in this intance, to Jonah's infuriation.

So you see, I spend at least equal time, to contemplate God's ways. Choking in outrage at one story, I do not find helpful in getting a fuller picture of God's ways in Bible.

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now let us assume for a moment that god has better things to do than smite a jew that puts lies in the bible.
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I won't spend time imagining lies in the word of God. Let me skip down a little past your hypotheticals to your real point

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we no longer have an evil god who will kill innocent children to make room for a privileged nation.
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I am not a part of your "we". I don't have an "evil god" in the Bible at all.

And if you would really read carefully the Old Testament, you would notice that this "priviledged nation" had a very heavy responsibility placed upon them. And they paid heavily for this.

To whom much is given much will be required. This "priviledge" of being the nation that God delivered Canaan land, came with quite a heavy responsibility as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, First and Second Kings and Chronicles, and all the minor prophets testify.

I los...

If you read carefully the account of Jericho I think you can still see God's wisdom. This wisdom, perhaps, to give the believing and repentent inhabitants of Jericho a way out of being killed.

For seven days the army repeated the act of circling the city. Now, when an army is circling a city, if the city is large enough, while they are in one position, there should be opportunity to escape the seige.

While the army is on the south side, those wishing to escape might leave the city from the north side. And so on. They could escape out of the wall from the opposite side that the army is occupied.

Joshua did this ritual seven times once a day for seven days. Seeing the army arrive, circle the city, and leave could have given opportunity for any to escape. The predictability of the march seems tailored to warn.

On the seventh day, they circled seven times and attacked.

My only point here is that perhaps, this divinely instructed march was also meant to allow the repentent to leave Jericho and escape destruction.

Think of the angels of God circling our world warning, warning, warning of empending divine judgment to come.

And still some are staunched opponents and obstinate critics towards God's word.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i figured you are not necessarily holding this as your own opinion.

however, even a fundamentalist cannot argue this enough
yes, god created us. yes he can terminate the loan at will. but he also submitted the idea that life , all life, is precious. after all, we are supposedly doomed for all eternity if we commit suicide. he loves us so much that he se ...[text shortened]... ave a god who sits by and allows us to live our lives and take responsibility for our actions.

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yes, god created us. yes he can terminate the loan at will. but he also submitted the idea that life , all life, is precious. after all, we are supposedly doomed for all eternity if we commit suicide. he loves us so much that he sent jesus to die on the cross for us, for all of us, not just his chosen people. so why would a god, a god that in just a few hundred years would send his son to save all mankind, be so callous with the lives of anyone but his chosen people. he tells joshua he will give him the land. and ruthlessly obliterates anyone still on it.
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I don't know if you heard about the little Jewish boy who asked his father "Daddy, are we Jews really God's chosen people ?" His father answers yet and the boy says "Why doesn't He pick on somebody else ?"

You didn't read how God had them removed to Assyria or Babylon for their idolatry ?

The point here is that the "chosen people" in the Bible bear a HEAVY, HEAVY responsibility for that status.

I'd love to provide proof texts to that. But I fear I would have to post in entire books of prophecy like Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea, Micah, and Amos ... etc.

Reading the Old Testament as biased self grandizing national propoganda for Jews doesn't work that well at all. You don't have to wait until the Gospel of John. Even in the book of Exodus or Judges the disconnect between Israel's appointed station and thier obediance is evident.

The Old Testament is called as a whole by Paul "the ministry of condemnation".

I don't think you realize the discipline upon Israel that went along with her being the chosen people.

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it just doesn't add up. fundamentalists would defend a text that makes god a murderer who changes without any reason whatsoever, vindictive, genocidal, infanticidal, etc just so the bible (that has other wonderful stuff like noah's ark and incest and 6 day creation) remains 100% accurate. me on the other hand claim that a book written ultimately by humans may in fact be lying and the supreme
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You're scatter shooting and throwing so much stuff out on the table it is hard to respond.

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being will not kill children because they are in the way of his chosen people, some tribes of nomads. by my claim, god is still a benevolent being that keeps away when bad men do bad things. still bad-ish but considering the alternatives (either no free will or he is in fact the illogical murderous god of the ot) i would rather have a god who sits by and allows us to live our lives and take responsibility for our actions.
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I do not have any sense, as a Christian, that I am not taking responsibility for my actions. I feel more responsible.

I am responsible to turn over chamber after chamber of my heart, my soul, and my mind to the Spirit of the living Jesus Christ. He wants to live on the earth again, but this time withint me.

And He wants to live again as the indwelling Holy Spirit, within those who simply open up their beings and allow Christ the available Savior to come into their beings.

Individually, God wants to enter, saturate, and flavor our whole beings with the personality of Jesus Christ. And collectively He is building a "city" called "New Jerusalem" as a corperate union and mingling of God and man.

"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) means that Jesus, in His resurrection state, is AVAILABLE and LIVING and ALIVE and can be known today.

I mean today.