1. SubscriberFMF
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    02 Apr '14 08:472 edits
    I wonder if any other NT book has contributed as much to Christians questioning and then abandoning their faith as the Book of Revelation has.

    Or perhaps it was only me amongst the ex-Christians here.

    Over the years, there have been a few Christians here on this Forum who have expressed some reservations about it, but I cannot remember who exactly.

    I've met several ex-Christians on my travels who cited Revelation as a factor in their loss of Christian beliefs.

    Thoughts?
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    02 Apr '14 09:06
    Originally posted by FMF
    I wonder if any other NT book has contributed as much to Christians questioning and then abandoning their faith as the Book of Revelation has.

    Or perhaps it was only me amongst the ex-Christians here.

    Over the years, there have been a few Christians here on this Forum who have expressed some reservations about it, but I cannot remember who exactly.

    I've ...[text shortened]... on my travels who cited Revelation as a factor in their loss of Christian beliefs.

    Thoughts?
    As a child I was a christian, so I consider myself correctly as ex-christian.

    Some parts of revelations should be held from children, they are horror-stories, they cannot handle it. Like the film 'Omen'. I didn't like reading the revelations, I remember, it gave me nightmares.

    Now, as a grown-up and ex-christian, I see revelations as twisted visions from a disturbed brain, disturbed by mental illness, or some substances.
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    02 Apr '14 09:14
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    As a child I was a christian, so I consider myself correctly as ex-christian.

    Some parts of revelations should be held from children, they are horror-stories, they cannot handle it. Like the film 'Omen'. I didn't like reading the revelations, I remember, it gave me nightmares.

    Now, as a grown-up and ex-christian, I see revelations as twisted visions from a disturbed brain, disturbed by mental illness, or some substances.
    simply because you cannot understand it does not necessitate that its the product of a diseased mind.
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    02 Apr '14 09:203 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    I wonder if any other NT book has contributed as much to Christians questioning and then abandoning their faith as the Book of Revelation has.

    Or perhaps it was only me amongst the ex-Christians here.

    Over the years, there have been a few Christians here on this Forum who have expressed some reservations about it, but I cannot remember who exactly.

    I've ...[text shortened]... on my travels who cited Revelation as a factor in their loss of Christian beliefs.

    Thoughts?
    The question is why did they cite revelation as a factor in the loss of their faith? Was it because they could not understand how it related to the rest of the scriptures and this confusion caused them to abandon their faith? That its imagery was too graphic for their delicate sensibilities and this was the catalyst? Indeed its a very strange turn of events to cite a book which encapsulates the pinnacle of both the Hebrew and Greek portions of scripture as being a factor in losing ones faith, very strange indeed.
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    02 Apr '14 09:31
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    simply because you cannot understand it does not necessitate that its the product of a diseased mind.
    Of course. But that is not was not my point.

    There are some diagnosis that produces fantasies like those in the revelations. Even when an epilepsy attack comes, there is known that these fantasies emerge. Stories from people who take hallucinogenic drugs are known to produce stories like those in the revelations.

    Or they can be real, in your opinion. Not in mine.
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    02 Apr '14 09:461 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Of course. But that is not was not my point.

    There are some diagnosis that produces fantasies like those in the revelations. Even when an epilepsy attack comes, there is known that these fantasies emerge. Stories from people who take hallucinogenic drugs are known to produce stories like those in the revelations.

    Or they can be real, in your opinion. Not in mine.
    I have taken copious amounts of hallucinogenics both natural and synthetic and I never had any visions like those mentioned in the book of revelation, infact in order for hallucinogenics to work, there needs to be a catalyst for suggestions to be made to your mind, one simply does not have abstract hallucinations and those with mental illness are the same, what they are suffering is a distortion of reality, not abstract hallucinations.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    02 Apr '14 10:07
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ... its a very strange turn of events to cite a book which encapsulates the pinnacle of both the Hebrew and Greek portions of scripture as being a factor in losing ones faith, very strange indeed.
    Short of time. A few dot points that will maybe be expanded upon if the topic draws a discussion.

    Bogus origin. Someone wrote down his "vision"? Sure.

    Tacked on late in the day. How long had Jesus been dead? 50 or 60 years?

    Deliberately opaque and given to divisive, competing interpretations.

    Totally pretentious and portentous, unlike Jesus as portrayed elsewhere in the NT.

    It takes the plain spoken clear man-in-the-street message typical of much of the NT away from the man in the street and hands it to institutionalized "experts" and self-defining "experts" to interpret and fight over .

    Just what corporate Christianity needed as a tool of control and as insulation for their elites.

    Probably added by ecclesiastical technocrats with great and careful calculation.

    Possibly aimed at taking certain Christianities [at that time] out of the game.

    The fact it "links" up with previous literature is of course no surprise.

    It's like a pack of cards designed for party tricks.

    Back when it was ONLY in Latin ~ it was even more exquisitely remote from ordinary folk, and its calculated obfuscation even more splendid.

    So much non-credibility surrounding it ~ making it a factor in undermining the credibility of the NT.

    Remember I am talking about people who don't accept it for what people claim it to be, and NOT trying to persuade you that you are wrong to believe it. 🙂
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    02 Apr '14 10:35
    What most people don't realize is that much of it is taken from the OT. The Beast is an example. Daniel describes "Beasts" that he interpreted for us as to be representative of "kingdoms" on earth. The last Beast in Daniel is the one described in Revelation, hence the last world empire.

    Revelation pictures mankind as on a collision course with destruction with God directly intervening at the end to "save" us. It also picture the nations of the world coming against Israel. Looking at the world today, you can either say these prophesies are coming true or people are just trying to make them come true. In fact, just the mere existence of the nation of Israel and Judaism is rather amazing thousands of years later.

    I think that the most profound prophesy is about the mark. With Statism as a world wide religion now, people are more dependent than ever on Big Brother as they rely on him for every aspect of their existence. Without a doubt, the prophesy about the mark presents an obstacle block for the said statists, for it is evident to me that branding us like cattle is a desired goal and one that has become much harder to sell because of the said prophesy. In this respect, the prophesy is actually helping to change our future. I think it has bought us some time.
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    02 Apr '14 10:44
    Originally posted by whodey
    What most people don't realize is that much of it is taken from the OT. The Beast is an example. Daniel describes "Beasts" that he interpreted for us as to be representative of "kingdoms" on earth. The last Beast in Daniel is the one described in Revelation, hence the last world empire.

    Revelation pictures mankind as on a collision course with destructi ...[text shortened]... ect, the prophesy is actually helping to change our future. I think it has bought us some time.
    If we accept that a loss of Christian faith goes hand in hand with a loss of belief in the credibility of the NT [and the claims made about its content], what other NT book would you think would contribute to Christians losing their belief in the NT more than the Book of Revelation does [in my humble and as yet not corroborated opinion, at least on this thread].

    I suppose I am asking you to empathize with ex-Christians here, or perhaps empathize with someone going through a process of a loss of belief in the NT.
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    02 Apr '14 11:07
    Originally posted by FMF
    If we accept that a loss of Christian faith goes hand in hand with a loss of belief in the credibility of the NT [and the claims made about its content], what other NT book would you think would contribute to Christians losing their belief in the NT more than the Book of Revelation does [in my humble and as yet not corroborated opinion, at least on this thread] ...[text shortened]... s here, or perhaps empathize with someone going through a process of a loss of belief in the NT.
    I can understand why it might turn off many who were drawn to Christ. After all, it is the end of the period of grace. When that happens, all hell literally breaks out once again.

    I would just tell people that the period of grace will be extended as long as possible.

    As for what offends people the list is long. You have those who only agree with the gospels and view Paul as a false teacher, which excludes a vast portion of the NT.

    Shrug. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
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    02 Apr '14 11:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have taken copious amounts of hallucinogenics both natural and synthetic and I never had any visions like those mentioned in the book of revelation, infact in order for hallucinogenics to work, there needs to be a catalyst for suggestions to be made to your mind, one simply does not have abstract hallucinations and those with mental illness are the same, what they are suffering is a distortion of reality, not abstract hallucinations.
    So because you don't have revelations when you take your drugs mean that no other have revelations? And how many do you think write his fantasies down? And how many of those get their written fantasies published in the bible? It happened once, and once's enough.

    FMF asked for thoughts. I gave my thoughts in the matter. Would you like to pre-read my thoughts so you can judge them before I write them down? Come on...?
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    02 Apr '14 11:252 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Short of time. A few dot points that will maybe be expanded upon if the topic draws a discussion.

    Bogus origin. Someone wrote down his "vision"? Sure.

    Tacked on late in the day. How long had Jesus been dead? 50 or 60 years?

    Deliberately opaque and given to divisive, competing interpretations.

    Totally pretentious and portentous, unlike Jesus as portra ...[text shortened]... what people claim it to be, and NOT trying to persuade you that you are wrong to believe it. 🙂
    none of which tell us why a Christian would lose their faith over it. Indeed I still find it quite incredulous that any Christian would lose their faith over it for the very same criticisms have been levelled against the Bible in its entirety and therefore I dont see why the book of Revelation should be singled out for special treatment as a catalyst for Christians to lose their faith.
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    02 Apr '14 11:331 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    So because you don't have revelations when you take your drugs mean that no other have revelations? And how many do you think write his fantasies down? And how many of those get their written fantasies published in the bible? It happened once, and once's enough.

    FMF asked for thoughts. I gave my thoughts in the matter. Would you like to pre-read my thoughts so you can judge them before I write them down? Come on...?
    Indeed nor has anyone else I know been given any revelations after consuming hallucinogenics. That is of course not to say it cannot happen but its a very weak argument often levelled against the book of Revelation by those who dont understand its contents, in other words, saying that the author was stoned is nothing more than an expression to compensate for lack of understanding. 'I dont understand it', the author must have been stoned.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    02 Apr '14 11:331 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ...I dont see why the book of Revelation should be singled out for special treatment as a catalyst for Christians to lose their faith.
    If you don't see why, then this may not be a thread for you. But thanks for stating that you don't see why the Book Of Revelation might play a role in loss of Christian faith.

    edit: What other NT book might be more likely to undermine the credibility of the NT in a wavering Christian's mind?
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    02 Apr '14 11:363 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    If you don't see why, then this may not be a thread for you. But thanks for stating that you don't see why the Book Of Revelation might play a role in loss of Christian faith.
    indeed let us know when you produce any evidence as to why it should prove to be a catalyst for a Christian to lose their faith, so far you have not produced a single iota that has not also been levelled against the Bible in its entirety.

    note : Bible comprised of sixty six books.
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