The Book Of Revelation Effect

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
indeed let us know when you produce any evidence as to why it should prove to be a catalyst for a Christian to lose their faith, so far you have not produced a single iota that has not also been levelled against the Bible in its entirety.

Evidence? My own experience is an example of the Book of Revelation being a 'bridge too far'. And also, in my OP, I said "I've met several ex-Christians on my travels who cited Revelation as a factor in their loss of Christian beliefs." Some of the stuff in the OP could perhaps be levelled about the Bible, but I wrote that particular combination of 'points' with the Book of Revelation in mind because of my own experience with it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
note : Bible comprised of sixty six books.

I'm talking about the NT. What other NT book might be more likely ~ according to you ~ to undermine the credibility of the NT in a wavering Christian's mind?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Indeed nor has anyone else I know been given any revelations after consuming hallucinogenics. That is of course not to say it cannot happen but its a very weak argument often levelled against the book of Revelation by those who dont understand its contents, in other words, saying that the author was stoned is nothing more than an expression to compensate for lack of understanding.

We know very little of the author of the revelations. At the most we know his name, but even this fact (?) point to any particular individual. We don't even know for sure when it was written. Even if we knew who and when, we don't know anything about the mental status, nor his drug habits, nor the combination thereof. Therefore we don't know much at all.

However, we know the fantasies, and how much alike they are the fantasies of drug users, or some mental states, according to the psychiatric literature.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
We know very little of the author of the revelations. At the most we know his name, but even this fact (?) point to any particular individual. We don't even know for sure when it was written. Even if we knew who and when, we don't know anything about the mental status, nor his drug habits, nor the combination thereof. Therefore we don't know much at all. ...[text shortened]... are the fantasies of drug users, or some mental states, according to the psychiatric literature.

evidence for drug use or mental aberration of the author, nil.

Originally posted by FMF
I'm talking about the NT. What other NT book might be more likely ~ according to you ~ to undermine the credibility of the NT in a wavering Christian's mind?

I dont know I have not limited the perspective of my faith to the so called 'New testament' and I dont know any other Christians that have.

Originally posted by FMF
Evidence? My own experience is an example of the Book of Revelation being a 'bridge too far'. And also, in my OP, I said "I've met several ex-Christians on my travels who cited Revelation as a factor in their loss of Christian beliefs." Some of the stuff in the OP could perhaps be levelled about the Bible, but I wrote that particular combination of 'points' with the Book of Revelation in mind because of my own experience with it.

I dont doubt your testimony but personal experience is notoriously hard to corroborate.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont doubt your testimony but personal experience is notoriously hard to corroborate.

Well, I have shared my experience in good faith. You don't need to feel you have to discuss it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont know I have not limited the perspective of my faith to the so called 'New testament' and I dont know any other Christians that have.

The story of Christ is in the NT. Without the NT there would have been no Christianity.

Originally posted by FMF
The story of Christ is in the NT. Without the NT there would have been no Christianity.

really, did the apostles of Christ have the New Testament? what about Paul, Barnabas and Timothy?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
really, did the apostles of Christ have the New Testament? what about Paul, Barnabas and Timothy?

Without the NT there would have been no Christianity for you and me, robbie.

Originally posted by FMF
Without the NT there would have been no Christianity for you and me, robbie.

Without the Hebrew scriptures FMF there would be no so called 'New testament', your willingness to limit a Christians perspective of faith to the Greek portion of scripture makes little sense

If clear allusions are taken into consideration, the figures are much higher: C. H. Toy lists 613 such instances, Wilhelm Dittmar goes as high as 1640, while Eugen Huehn indicates 4105 passages reminiscent of Old Testament Scripture. It can therefore be asserted, without exaggeration, that more than 10 per cent of the New Testament text is made up of citations or direct allusions to the Old Testament. The recorded words of Jesus disclose a similar percentage. Certain books like Revelation, Hebrews, Romans are well nigh saturated with Old Testament forms of language, allusions and quotations. Perusal of Nestle’s edition of the Greek New Testament, in which the Old Testament material is printed in bold face type, will reveal at a glance the extent of this practice. These facts appear even more impressive when one remembers that in New Testament times the Old Testament was not as today duplicated by the million but could be obtained only in expensive handwritten copies.

If we limit ourselves to the specific quotations and direct allusions which form the basis of our previous reckoning, we shall note that 278 different Old Testament verses are cited in the New Testament: 94 from the Pentateuch, 99 from the Prophets, and 85 from the Writings. Out of the 22 books in the Hebrew reckoning of the Canon only six (Judges-Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Ezra-Nehemlah, Chronicles) are not explicitly referred to. The more extensive lists of Dittmar and Huehn show passages reminiscent of all Old Testament books without exception.

It is to be noted that the whole New Testament contains not even one explicit citation of any of the Old Testament Apocrypha which are considered as canonical by the Roman Catholic Church. This omission can scarcely be viewed as accidental.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Without the Hebrew scriptures FMF there would be no so called 'New testament', your willingness to limit a Christians perspective of faith to the Greek portion of scripture makes little sense

I am not seeking to "limit" any Christian's "perspective of faith". I'm talking about my perspective on why I abandoned the Christian faith. As I said on page 1, remember I am talking about people who don't accept Book Of Revelation for what people claim it to be, and I am not trying to persuade Christians that that they are wrong to believe it.

Originally posted by FMF
I am not seeking to "limit" any Christian's "perspective of faith". I'm talking about my perspective on why I abandoned the Christian faith. As I said on page 1, remember I am talking about people who don't accept Book Of Revelation for what people claim it to be, and I am not trying to persuade Christians that that they are wrong to believe it.

But you asked what other book specifically in the 'New testament', could have acted as a catalyst for a Christian to lose their faith when in fact there is no reason to assume that any Christians faith is solely based upon the books of the so called 'New testament' making the question nonsensical.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But you asked what other book specifically in the 'New testament', could have acted as a catalyst for a Christian to lose their faith when in fact there is no reason to assume that any Christians faith is solely based upon the books of the so called 'New testament' making the question nonsensical.

It's not "nonsensical" at all. It was only books in the NT that might have undermined my specific belief in Jesus Christ. Doubts about the credibility of one or more of the OT books was not likely to ~ and did not ~ undermine my belief in Jesus Christ. Instead it started, for me, and some others I have spoken to, with the Book Of Revelation.

edit: If you have a suggestion as to an OT book that might have had the same kind of damaging effect on my belief in Jesus as the Book Of Revelation eventually did, then by all means feel free to mention it.

edit 2: off to the pub

Originally posted by FMF
It's not "nonsensical" at all. It was only books in the NT that might have undermined my specific belief in Jesus Christ. Doubts about the credibility of one or more of the OT books was not likely to ~ and did not ~ undermine my belief in Jesus Christ. Instead it started, for me, and some others I have spoken to, with the Book Of Revelation.

edit: If you have ...[text shortened]... Revelation eventually did, then by all means feel free to mention it.

edit 2: off to the pub

and yet the words of Christ contain many references to the Hebrew scriptures as does the New Testament and the Book of Revelation yet you never thought it prudent to look at their import except within the confines of the New testament itself? How were you supposed to evaluate it in the context of which it is set if you are determined to only look at it within the relatively small parameters of the New testament.