03 Apr 14
Originally posted by FMFHow do we accept things from De Vinci or anyone else that is now dead and gone. There is no one left alive that can say it is De Vinci's statement. The same is true of John, it is through tradition in the church.
Oh I see. And how is this claim substantiated? What reason, apart from what the text claims about itself, does anyone have to accept it?
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by PudgenikI don't find the claims credible. So what am I supposed to do?
How do we accept things from De Vinci or anyone else that is now dead and gone. There is no one left alive that can say it is De Vinci's statement. The same is true of John, it is through tradition in the church.
Anyway, I think ~ just on the topic of supposed authorship alone here, just now ~ it has been demonstrated that you are unable to make the book credible to me simply with your assertions, no matter how strongly you make them.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by FMFThat is ok, as I said I'm no scholar. I don't claim to be anything. Just a guy whom the bible lives in me.
I don't find the claims credible. So what am I supposed to do?
Anyway, I think ~ just on the topic of supposed authorship alone here, just now ~ it has been demonstrated that you are unable to make the book credible to me simply with your assertions, no matter how strongly you make them.
Originally posted by FMFThe Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy. Another book of prophecy among other books of prophecy all included in the Bible. The only difference is that the majority of this prophecy hasn't happened yet. That's why it's called the Book of Revelation.
Oh I see. And how is this claim substantiated? What reason, apart from what the text claims about itself, does anyone have to accept it?
So are you telling us you had no problem with all the other prophecies in the Bible, but when faced with the only set of prophecies about the future, you couldn't handle that and lost your faith? It seems your faith was very little, indeed... perhaps you were just waiting for some excuse to pitch it all in the bin.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by SuzianneYou like to run your Christianity like Boot Camp, don't you?
The Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy. Another book of prophecy among other books of prophecy all included in the Bible. The only difference is that the majority of this prophecy hasn't happened yet. That's why it's called the Book of Revelation.
So are you telling us you had no problem with all the other prophecies in the Bible, but whe ...[text shortened]... very little, indeed... perhaps you were just waiting for some excuse to pitch it all in the bin.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitOne either believes or one does not believe.
You like to run your Christianity like Boot Camp, don't you?
If one believes only until something happens that causes him to lose his belief, then exactly how serious was the belief? Exactly. Either one is committed, or one is not committed.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by SuzianneI don't agree with any of that. There are degrees of confidence in a belief. One doesn't get a prize for having more confidence. What we gain is real understanding as our beliefs more closely match reality.
One either believes or one does not believe.
If one believes only until something happens that causes him to lose his belief, then exactly how serious was the belief? Exactly. Either one is committed, or one is not committed.
Nor does a later loss of belief indicate that the belief was not serious. It may simply mean that the person encountered new, overwhelming evidence that their belief was wrong.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitJesus said that if one has even a tiny amount of faith, one can move mountains. But this faith must be true, it cannot be wishy-washy. It must be a faith that you know to be true. Anything less is not worthy.
I don't agree with any of that. There are degrees of confidence in a belief. One doesn't get a prize for having more confidence. What we gain is real understanding as our beliefs more closely match reality.
Nor does a later loss of belief indicate that the belief was not serious. It may simply mean that the person encountered new, overwhelming evidence that their belief was wrong.
My life has not always been easy. I have seen some horrific things. And yet, of all I have seen with my own eyes, I have never encountered any "overwhelming" evidence that my beliefs are wrong. And I never will. This is the kind of faith everyone should have. At a minimum, faith is trust in God. Either you trust completely, or you do not trust at all. As Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
03 Apr 14
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Originally posted by FMFThis whole argument seems rather suspect.
I wonder if any other NT book has contributed as much to Christians questioning and then abandoning their faith as the Book of Revelation has.
Or perhaps it was only me amongst the ex-Christians here.
Over the years, there have been a few Christians here on this Forum who have expressed some reservations about it, but I cannot remember who exactly.
I've ...[text shortened]... on my travels who cited Revelation as a factor in their loss of Christian beliefs.
Thoughts?
So there are those out there that would still be Christians if Revelation were never written? How so?
If have been converted through the teachings of Jesus Christ, then why be swayed against it by the other books that accompany the said texts within the Bible?
I think the larger issue here FMF is that you have an issue with the Bible and not just Revelation. If you have enough faith in the other texts then Revelation should not sway you. My guess though is that you have no real faith in the other texts as well in terms of their validity. Otherwise, it would be akin to throwing away the entire theory of relativity simply on the basis that at the very end Albert said that he believe God created it all.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by SuzianneExactly. TINY amount of faith. There you go.
Jesus said that if one has even a tiny amount of faith, one can move mountains. But this faith must be true, it cannot be wishy-washy. It must be a faith that you know to be true. Anything less is not worthy.
My life has not always been easy. I have seen some horrific things. And yet, of all I have seen with my own eyes, I have never encounte ...[text shortened]... trust completely, or you do not trust at all. As Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
03 Apr 14
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Originally posted by whodeyExactly, I "have no real faith" in the other texts as well. In fact I have no faith in any of them at all any more. I am not sure why this has not been absolutely clear to you already from what I have been saying.
I think the larger issue here FMF is that you have an issue with the Bible and not just Revelation. If you have enough faith in the other texts then Revelation should not sway you. My guess though is that you have no real faith in the other texts as well in terms of their validity.
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by whodeyI can't say I've ever met anyone who fits this description so your comment seems like a bit of a straw man. You can pretend all you want not to understand or accept that people can lose their faith due to a gradual process of no longer recognizing the credibility of parts of the bible [and finally culminating in losing belief in ~ and rejecting ~ it all, as opposed to it happening in a eureka moment], but you can't cancel out another person's actual experience by simply finding it "rather suspect".
This whole argument seems rather suspect. So there are those out there that would still be Christians if Revelation were never written? How so?
03 Apr 14
Originally posted by SuzianneI don't think 'how horrific' or 'not horrific' things I have seen ~ or how easy or hard my life may have been ~ has anything to do with it. Nor do I think 'how certain' and 'how permanent' your beliefs happen to be has any bearing on my beliefs.
My life has not always been easy. I have seen some horrific things. And yet, of all I have seen with my own eyes, I have never encountered any "overwhelming" evidence that my beliefs are wrong. And I never will.