The Challenge

Originally posted by amannion
I use spooky because you're referring to supernatural concepts - and may as well refer to ghosts or gods or vampires, for all the difference between them.
Soul is a supernatural concept so I'll ignore that one, since there is no possible proof that it exists.
Intelligence is not an energy - energy is the ability to do work. Intelligence is merely a useful ...[text shortened]... your new age, airy fairy rant, so I won't bother responding to the last half of your post ...

I didnt say consciousness is life, but cosciousness is a attribute of life.

Vampires are fictional comic book charachters, no need to bring it up here.

A ghost is another word for disembodied spirit.

A spirit is an ethreral being, (they are real)

Intelligence is an energy, its a subtle energy and has characteristics of derliberation,guidance,control.

You cant see intelligence under a microscope, just like you cant see kinetic energy under a microscope either, but you accept its existance.

Theres many things the scientists cant see or begin to understand, by their empirical methods of experimentation.

The perfect method of gaining knowledge, is the descending method.

Practically everything you know, is by this method.

Originally posted by amannion
And then you just go into your new age, airy fairy rant, so I won't bother responding to the last half of your post ...

It's part of his rethorics. To rant. If you don't accept this, he gets insultive.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Why do you use adjectives like spooky spirit.

Do I say spooky natural selection.

The soul is energy, the soul is you, you are not that material body.

The man in the mirror is not you, its your vehicle.

You are the spiritual being within the vehicle.

When you die your body becomes dust, then the dust scatters all over, and becomes one with t ...[text shortened]... and the order.

This is why when you observe a living cell, you see functionallity not chaos.

Your consciousness/ mind is not different than your body, in fact your mind is the most subtle part of your body, the most refined. It can be influenced through your body. Eat, and the mind is affected. Drink, and the mind is affected. Smoke, and the mind is affected. Make love, and the mind is affected. Whatever your body does, it affects your focus. Therefore you should know by now that the mind is the most refined part of your body -and your body is material, that is. So how can exist your “body” apart from your “consciousness/ mind”? And how can your “consciousness/ mind” exist apart from your "body"? This religious dualism of yours drives you delusional.

I am sure you are well aware of the fact that you can control your body by means of controlling your mind; and you are well aware of the fact that you can control your mind by means of controlling your body. This means you can affect your body by means of affecting your mind, and at the same time you can affect your mind by means of affecting your body. Therefore you should understand that there is only a unique entity, bodymind. By means of controlling these two poles of your existence you control your existence. So remember: body and mind are not two, as you are preaching due to your blind religious beliefs, but one.



All return to One; where to the One returns?
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
By means of controlling these two poles of your existence you control your existence. So remember: body and mind are not two, as you are preaching due to your blind religious beliefs, but one.

But that one is made up of two parts: the physical matter and its state. An atom is just an atom, but when it is in a particular place in the universe, that information adds to its state. Thus the pattern made up by the atoms in your body are state. There are patterns in that state that continue on almost independently from the individual atoms.
What we call 'you' may have a completely different set of atoms now from what you had at the age of two. A whirl wind may change its 'air' from moment to moment, but the pattern may last for quite a while. The pattern is both intimately connected to the physical and also separate from it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But that one is made up of two parts: the physical matter and its state. An atom is just an atom, but when it is in a particular place in the universe, that information adds to its state. Thus the pattern made up by the atoms in your body are state. There are patterns in that state that continue on almost independently from the individual atoms.
What we a while. The pattern is both intimately connected to the physical and also separate from it.

Do you say that a carbon atom in my body has not the same properties as an carbon atom in a (say) stone?
What happen if I took a carbon atom from this stone and put it in me, that the property of this atom changes?

(Note: Stones might have carbon in them. Like limestone, calcium carbonate, CaCO3. For those who object that stones can have carbon.)

to BlackBeetle

You have speculated and have made error, mind is not the most subtle, the soul is the living being proper, and is the most subtle, followed by intelligence and then false ego and then mind.

Body/mind are two, and after death, consciousness continues to the next body.

The body can be destroyed, and consciosness can never be destroyed.

However consciousness can be covered over, just like dust covering a mirror, may affect the reflection.

Dulism is truth, and monism is the delusion, and you have your information back the front.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
to BlackBeetle

You have speculated and have made error, mind is not the most subtle, the soul is the living being proper, and is the most subtle, followed by intelligence and then false ego and then mind.

Body/mind are two, and after death, consciousness continues to the next body.

The body can be destroyed, and consciosness can never be destroye ...[text shortened]... n.

Dulism is truth, and monism is the delusion, and you have your information back the front.

Edit: "Body/mind are two, and after death, consciousness continues to the next body."


Prove it
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: "Body/mind are two, and after death, consciousness continues to the next body."


Prove it
😵

He doesn't have to prove it. Unless he says it is science, of course. But in his religion he is fine of believeing anything. Even that consiousness continues after death. Just his religion, just his religion.

Unless he become insulting about it, then he should rethink about what his religion is all about.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But that one is made up of two parts: the physical matter and its state. An atom is just an atom, but when it is in a particular place in the universe, that information adds to its state. Thus the pattern made up by the atoms in your body are state. There are patterns in that state that continue on almost independently from the individual atoms.
What we ...[text shortened]... a while. The pattern is both intimately connected to the physical and also separate from it.

Edit: “What we call 'you' may have a completely different set of atoms now from what you had at the age of two. A whirl wind may change its 'air' from moment to moment, but the pattern may last for quite a while. The pattern is both intimately connected to the physical and also separate from it.”

We could probably agree that you, when you were just born, and you right now, are neither the same nor a different person. It is through the connection of all the various states of your bodymind (in oneness) that you (today) and you (when you were a new born baby) are unified. In exactly the same way all your elements of being join one another in serial succession: one element perishes, another arises, succeeding each other as it were instantaneously. Therefore neither as the same nor as a different person do you arrive at your latest aggregation of consciousnesses
😵

Originally posted by twhitehead
But that one is made up of two parts: the physical matter and its state. An atom is just an atom, but when it is in a particular place in the universe, that information adds to its state. Thus the pattern made up by the atoms in your body are state. There are patterns in that state that continue on almost independently from the individual atoms.
What we ...[text shortened]... a while. The pattern is both intimately connected to the physical and also separate from it.

I understand the reality of the oneness of my bodymind in an experiential and perceptual sense and not as an ontologically “real existence” in an absolute manner. Since reality overall is manifested within the experiential continuums of sentient beings alone, I argue that there are as many realities as sentient beings -and this has nothing to do with the common Western Relativism (ie with the general idea that there is no absolute truth at all but only relative truth to specific experiential domains).

The “ultimate truth” of my bodymind (in oneness) which is implicit, is hidden to the common consciousness and is immanent within the multitude of relative truths which manifest within the mental continuums of all sentient beings. Therefore, although the “physical matter” is always arranged in given “states” as you said, you at the age of two are neither the same, nor different, nor both nor neither than you at the age of aged 50.

So I understand my bodymind (in oneness) as a specific single phenomenon that arose from the basis from which all phenomena manifest, therefore my awareness regarding my oneness stands beyond the dualism approach of yours. I conceive the ground of being of my existence (of my bodymind in oneness) as unconditioned. This ground of being lacks of causes and conditions and it is without birth, aging, abiding and ceasing, it lacks falsehood, deception and harm and thus it is primordial and natural peacefulness.

Back to your argument: the illusory appearances of “atoms” and their “state”, of apprehender and apprehended, of the perceiver and perceived arise solely as reflections of each other due to an inner cognitive process that takes place solely on the basis of previous cognitive processes. Methinks this is the reason why you acknowledge “body” and “mind” as two instead of one. However, since in my opinion all phenomena are mind-only, methinks that what appears in your argument is solely your imagination of what is non-existent, and it appears by means of supposedly having the character of duality. The non-existent in your duality (body and mind as two and not as one) is the existent nature of the oneness in it. And, on the other hand, I ‘m sure the non-existence of this imaginary nature in a dependent nature is indeed a thoroughly established nature out of your latest aggregation of your consciousness!
😵

Originally posted by FabianFnas
He doesn't have to prove it. Unless he says it is science, of course. But in his religion he is fine of believeing anything. Even that consiousness continues after death. Just his religion, just his religion.

Unless he become insulting about it, then he should rethink about what his religion is all about.

Methinks he has to prove it because he is preaching that this doctrine, along with any other Vendata doctrine he is preaching -the way he understands Vendata, that is- is the "absolute truth". At least we both agree that he can beleive blindly whatever he likes, sure thing😵

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Do you say that a carbon atom in my body has not the same properties as an carbon atom in a (say) stone?

Location is a property, so yes, they have different properties.
If you looked really closely to the characters on your screen you would see that they are made up of black pixels on a black background (probably). Each pixel individually looks the same, but somehow they not only create characters, but also words and meaning. Those words and meaning manage to travel from you to me via various forms and by the time they get to me a whole new set of pixels is required, yet your post has hardly changed. Are the post and pixels 'one'? Does your post exist? What is it made of?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Location is a property, so yes, they have different properties.
If you looked really closely to the characters on your screen you would see that they are made up of black pixels on a black background (probably). Each pixel individually looks the same, but somehow they not only create characters, but also words and meaning. Those words and meaning manage ...[text shortened]... t has hardly changed. Are the post and pixels 'one'? Does your post exist? What is it made of?

Let's stick to the carbon atom for now, okay?

The only property change for a carbon atom in a stone, and a carbonn copy inside my body is the location, right? Or are there elements of 'life' in the bodily carbon atom, that is not in the stone carbon atom?

Now for the pixels. Yes, a pixel is only a pixel seen individually. It takes more of them to form a letter. But a pixel is dead, therefore we are out of the 'living' property of a pixel kind of scenario. We can talk pixels if you like, but that's not what my question was about.

Is there a property in a carbon atom that is outside science? If so, what?

Originally posted by black beetle
Methinks he has to prove it because he is preaching that this doctrine, along with any other Vendata doctrine he is preaching -the way he understands Vendata, that is- is the "absolute truth". At least we both agree that he can beleive blindly whatever he likes, sure thing😵

As long he thinks that it is an element of his religion, then he cannot use the scientific proving method to prove his point. Because science cannot deal with religious things, they are supernatural, whereas science only deals with natural things.

We can prove anything religiously with just saying that "god told me so" and there is no way to disprove this. But the very moment he tells us about the vedic science, then he has to redefine 'science' quite much to make it to work. As science defines 'science' quite well as it is, then there is no need for a religious redefinision of the word 'science'. 'Science' says it all by itself.

And science don't deal with religious phenomena, therefore demanding him to prove anything within his own religion, and outside real science is futile. He just cannot do it. If he tries, he will fail.

I'm not defending his views. He is plain wrong in more or less anything he says. That's why he must use insults to prove his points. "If you don't believe me, then you are idiots all of you!", kind of arguments.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
The only property change for a carbon atom in a stone, and a carbonn copy inside my body is the location, right?

Correct. But location is everything.

Now for the pixels. Yes, a pixel is only a pixel seen individually. It takes more of them to form a letter. But a pixel is dead, therefore we are out of the 'living' property of a pixel kind of scenario.
But the pixels make the screen come to life. Without pixels you wont have the story. Without pixels you cant play the game. But is the game or the story (or in this case the post) the pixels, or something altogether non-material?

We can talk pixels if you like, but that's not what my question was about.

Is there a property in a carbon atom that is outside science? If so, what?
I am not sure what you mean by 'outside science'. I am not talking about anything that is in some way not subject to study through scientific methods.

Let me make another analogy. I write you a letter. You might say the letter is the physical sheet of paper, plus the ink, plus the meaning of the words written in ink on the paper.

But if I wrote an email to you, you would discard the physical and treat it as information only.

So do you see yourself as the physical plus information or the information alone?

If I copied your consciousness into an advanced computer that could replicate your brain functions, would it be you?