1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Oct '05 04:121 edit
    Some of our Roman Catholic friends have recently been making the claim that the Inquistions were actually created because the punishment of heretics by the secular authorities was toooooo severe and the Church wanted to provide greater protection to the accused. Why would secular authorities even punish people for heresy and why would they do it in such a bloodthirsty manner? Where did they get such an idea from?

    From the Fourth Lateran Council: Cannon 3 on Heresy

    Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land....

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html


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  2. Standard memberNemesio
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    28 Oct '05 06:38
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Some of our Roman Catholic friends have recently been making the claim that the Inquistions were actually created because the punishment of heretics by the secular authorities was toooooo severe and the Church wanted to provide greater protection to the accused. Why would secular authorities even punish people for heresy and why would they do it in such ...[text shortened]... ....

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html


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    Would such a text be considered infallible?

    Nemesio
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Oct '05 06:55
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Would such a text be considered infallible?

    Nemesio
    Damned if know. NewAdvent says this about the Council's work product:

    The fathers of the council did little more than approve the seventy decrees presented to them; this approbation, nevertheless, sufficed to impart to the acts thus formulated and promulgated the value of ecumenical decrees.

    What is the "value of ecumenical decrees"?
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Oct '05 07:07
    Upon further review, on found this in NewAdvent regarding Councils:

    All the arguments which go to prove the infallibility of the Church apply with their fullest force to the infallible authority of general councils in union with the pope. For conciliary decisions are the ripe fruit of the total life-energy of the teaching Church actuated and directed by the Holy Ghost

    Pope Innocent the whatever attended the Fourth Lateran Council and he himself presented the 70 canons, including the one on heretics partially cited above. Thus, it would apparently be a "general council in union with the pope (actually it was more of a rubber stamp of the Pope)" and thus, the Canon above would be considered "infallible" doctrine directed by the Holy Ghost him/her/itself.
  5. London
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    28 Oct '05 12:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Some of our Roman Catholic friends have recently been making the claim that the Inquistions were actually created because the punishment of heretics by the secular authorities was toooooo severe and the Church wanted to provide greater protection to the accused. Why would secular authorities even punish people for heresy and why would they do it in such ...[text shortened]... ....

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html


    HMMMMMMMM ...............
    Why would secular authorities even punish people for heresy ...

    Same reason governments today punish revolutionaries.
  6. London
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    28 Oct '05 12:15
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Would such a text be considered infallible?

    Nemesio
    No.
  7. England
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    28 Oct '05 15:25
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b][b]Why would secular authorities even punish people for heresy ...
    because lucifer hardens there hearts and spouts scripture to decive the world of the truth.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    28 Oct '05 15:51
    Originally posted by lucifershammer

    Same reason governments today punish revolutionaries.
    The wording in no1's quote strongly suggests that many secular authorities were less than zealous about rooting out heretics; hence the Church's threats.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Oct '05 16:012 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    No.
    WHAT?? It is canon approved by a Council of the Church, convened by the Pope. The canon itself was presented by the Pope to the Council which approved it. Please discuss the excerpts from NewAdvent I cited which make it quite clear that such a canon would be considered infallible.

    "All the arguments which go to prove the infallibility of the Church apply with their fullest force to the infallible authority of general councils in union with the pope. For conciliary decisions are the ripe fruit of the total life-energy of the teaching Church actuated and directed by the Holy Ghost".




    Whatever happened to your zeal to discuss the "true history of the Inquistion"??
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Oct '05 16:051 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]Why would secular authorities even punish people for heresy ...

    Same reason governments today punish revolutionaries.[/b]
    The Church in the canon threatens the incitement of revolution if secular authorities do not "exterminate" heretics. It would seem the Church was a far greater threat to secular authorities than heretics.
  11. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    28 Oct '05 16:06
    Yep. The facts are the facts.

    In simonsaysship,
    Dr. S
  12. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    28 Oct '05 16:09
    Originally posted by no1marauder


    Whatever happened to your zeal to discuss the "true history of the Inquistion"??
    The zeal was never claimed to be infallible.
  13. London
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    28 Oct '05 16:12
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    The wording in no1's quote strongly suggests that many secular authorities were less than zealous about rooting out heretics; hence the Church's threats.
    By the time of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the war against the Albigensians (and their protectors) was in full flow. So, not unsurprisingly, there were many secular authorities who were less than zealous etc.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Oct '05 16:13
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    By the time of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the war against the Albigensians (and their protectors) was in full flow. So, not unsurprisingly, there were many secular authorities who were less than zealous etc.
    Who called for the war against the Albigensians, LH?
  15. London
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    28 Oct '05 16:191 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    WHAT?? It is canon approved by a Council of the Church, convened by the Pope. The canon itself was presented by the Pope to the Council which approved it. Please discuss the excerpts from NewAdvent I cited which make it quite clear that such a canon would be considered infallible.

    "All the arguments which go to prove the infallibility of the C ...[text shortened]...




    Whatever happened to your zeal to discuss the "true history of the Inquistion"??
    WHAT?? It is canon approved by a Council of the Church, convened by the Pope. The canon itself was presented by the Pope to the Council which approved it. Please discuss the excerpts from NewAdvent I cited which make it quite clear that such a canon would be considered infallible.

    Follow the link on 'infallibility' in the paragraph you cited:

    "In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals."*

    The canon you cited is a disciplinary canon, not a dogmatic one. Disciplinary canons cannot be infallible.

    ---
    * http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
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