The cocked gun to the head

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
LMAO! What a great story. You should take him south of the border for some cerveza. Should be no problem with that.

Probably too many Catholics for his comfort, but that's another sermon.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Probably too many Catholics for his comfort, but that's another sermon.

I take it that congregation doesn't serve wine at communion. What is their take on Jesus' wedding miracle?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Well it is very possible that I did discuss it as fully as I knew how. My responses to isues is most often shorter than many others because I 1) like to get to the point and 2) most things of great importance don't need a lot of discu ...[text shortened]... m any denomination. But as we know ideas are cheaper than money.

Thanks for your reply.
After reading your post I once again had to realise that religion in the States means a lot of things. As I understand it now, it often stands for ignorance and lack of development in many ways. These forms of religion are not often seen in Europe. There are some protestant groups in the Netherlands of which I know that they are pretty "strict", to put it mildly, but I guess they are a beacon of light compared to the religious people you are talking about.

I have mentioned more than once the in my view necessity of a Magisterium we have in the Roman-Catholic Church, that interpretes the Scriptures, decides on dogma's, how to interprete the natural moral law, etc etc.. These deliberations sometimes take decades or even centuries of debate and discussion. The results the Magisterium presents to us are a garantee not to go astray from the true Faith in Jesus Christ and keep us from superstition and irrationality.
Some people, well maybe many, look upon the Magisterium as some sort of Dictatership that tells you what to think or what to decide. I, however, look upon it as a guide that is there to advise me in many very important issues, which are so easily obscured by what is called the "spirit of the time". The Magisterium certainly is not meant to stifle and smother people and encouraging them NOT to think. On the contrary, the Faith, the true Faith, always invites us to investigate things and think about them.

The Protestant Churches lack such a central organ and unfortunately we can see the sometimes laughable, sometimes devastating and sometimes frightening results of that.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

The Protestant Churches lack such a central organ and unfortunately we can see the sometimes laughable, sometimes devastating and sometimes frightening results of that.

The Protestant churches also lack a power hierarchy that enables conspiratorial child molestation. I guess you take the good with the bad.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
The Protestant churches also lack a power hierarchy that enables conspiratorial child molestation. I guess you take the good with the bad.

Somewhere in Scripture there is a statement that tells us to listen carefully to priests, or rabbis, or pastors because they present us the Word of God, but the same statement warns us not to follow them (in their deeds).

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Somewhere in Scripture there is a statement that tells us to listen carefully to priests, or rabbis, or pastors because they present us the Word of God, but the same statement warns us not to follow them (in their deeds).

Perhaps it would be best if there were statements mandating priests to turn each other in when they have committed crimes. I suppose they see confession as their forgiveness and absolution from the crime so there's no need to involve law enforcement.

Sorry to be so cynical towards religion Ivanhoe, it's not personal against you, but people in positions of power have a nasty habit of resisting change. The *church* is no exception.

Originally posted by wib
Define "Road to hell".

I think these verses from Mathew 7 convey the idea. Jesus speaking...
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Some balk at the idea of there being only one way to heaven; as if various and divergent roads could ever lead to the same place! It doesn't work in the real world, nor in the spiritual.

And some take offense that Jesus claims to be that one and only way;
instead of accepting His free offer of free salvation that He extends to each and every person, they seem to say they don't want to be saved unless they can be saved anybody else.

Imagine drowning; Someone appears on the riverbank with a long stick reaching out to you. Instead of grabbing it you say, 'wait, you're the only one helping me. I think I'll wait till 10 other people come along!' 'There are 10 others nearby' the guy says, but none of them are strong enough, or have the right kind of stick. And none of them are willing to risk their lives for you like I am!'

Anyway....I digress.

Originally posted by wib
Define "Road to hell".

Actually back in the bible days, hell was defined as cellar, or grave

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
The Catholic Church once insisted, as a matter of its theology as you have often made quite clear, that the sun revolved around the Earth.

It later recanted.

Thus, its theology has changed. At most one of these two theologies can be true.

First, the geocentric model was/is a matter of cosmology/astronomy, not theology.

Second, the geocentric model was never part of official Church dogma. No Pope has ever made an ex cathedra statement about it, nor has any General Council mentioned it in a Dogmatic Constitution.

Since the Church never taught it, there was nothing to recant.

Btw, what model do you think the Church "taught" for the 1000 years or so before Aristotle's works were translated back into Latin?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
First, the geocentric model was/is a matter of cosmology/astronomy, not theology.

Now you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

Don't you recall a former debate here in which you insisted that Galileo was condemned by the Inquisition for meddling in theology, when all he was doing was expounding upon cosmological observations.?

If you now retract that he was meddling in theology, then what was he condemned for?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Now you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

Don't you recall a former debate here in which you insisted that Galileo was condemned by the Inquisition for meddling in theology, when all he was doing was expounding upon cosmol ...[text shortened]... that he was meddling in theology, then what was he condemned for?

Go back and read the thread (afraid I can't think of a more polite way to say it).

1. Galileo was pulled up for comments he made about the Scriptures, which was most definitely meddling in theology (and certainly more than just "expounding cosmological observations" ). He certainly ruffled a lot of feathers for his support of the heliocentric model (and, for a lot of the clergy at the time, the geocentric model was thought to be linked with Church teaching). However, there was no canonical basis to charge him with any crime until he made his comments on the Scripture.
2. Both the Copernican model and Galileo's backing of it were well known facts for years before his trial.
3. In fact, Galileo had plenty of support within the Church (the Pope, the Jesuits and Cardinal Bellarmine spring to mind) for his scientific explorations. It's when he started talking about the Scriptures - that too when he could not demonstrate that his model was any better than the Keplerian one scientifically - that he really lost support. Indeed, Cardinal Bellarmine stated that if Galileo could demonstrate the scientific superiority of his model, then he was willing to revisit the interpretation of pertinent verses.

Now, you have a point that he was wrongly accused, and convicted, of heresy. I say "wrongly" because, from a legal standpoint, he did not actually commit heresy even for his time. However, the Office of the Inquisition is not an official teaching body of the Church; it's rulings do not determine Church teachings.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Go back and read the thread (afraid I can't think of a more polite way to say it).

1. Galileo was pulled up for comments he made about the Scriptures, which was most definitely meddling in theology (and certainly more than just ...[text shortened]... dy of the Church; it's rulings do not determine Church teachings.

According to http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/galileo.html :

The Holy Tribunal in Galileo's condemnation states: "The proposition that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because (philosophically false because! (Dr's emphasis)) it is expressly contrary to the Holy Scripture. The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world and immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically, and theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith."

It is the Church's stance that he was meddling in theology by proposing scientific views expressly contrary to the Holy Scripture. Or is this source wrong?

The Holy Tribunal sure sounds like it's teaching to me, stating that some propositions are false.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
According to http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/galileo.html :

The Holy Tribunal in Galileo's condemnation states: "The proposition that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and fals ...[text shortened]... t's teaching to me, stating that some propositions are false.[/b]

Philosophically "false" because the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic model was widely considered to be the only correct cosmological model at the time.

The 'Holy Tribunal' is not a teaching body of the Church. Its judgments do not constitute Catholic doctrine/dogma.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Thanks for your reply.
After reading your post I once again had to realise that religion in the States means a lot of things. As I understand it now, it often stands for ignorance and lack of development in many ways. These forms of religion are not often seen in Europe. There are some protestant groups in the Netherlands of which I know that they are pre ...[text shortened]... e the sometimes laughable, sometimes devastating and sometimes frightening results of that.

So do you think everything that your churchleaders decide is correct? could they ever be wrong? I agree with you that some of the Protestant Churches interpretes things way goofy. But why dont you listen to Paul's advise when he says to Work out your own salvation, instead of letting a church tell you what to do.

notice how Paul says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, allot of people delete the words (in their heart) "with fear and trembling"

Originally posted by flyUnity
So do you think everything that your churchleaders decide is correct? could they ever be wrong? I agree with you that some of the Protestant Churches interpretes things way goofy. But why dont you listen to Paul's advise when he says to Work out your own salvation, instead of letting a church tell you what to do.

notice how Paul says to work out your o ...[text shortened]... ear and trembling, allot of people delete the words (in their heart) "with fear and trembling"

Where does Paul say that??