The Con Game

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem

I am a former Christian who has read the Bible thoroughly.

I went through a period like this after having some fellowship with God definitely on a personal level.

I seemed to have blacked out or had some kind of amnesia for several years. What amazed me is that the Friend in God I did have a child, turned out to be real when I found my way to Him again as an adult.

I thought I had left God with childhood. It surprised me latter as an adult, after wandering around like a lost sheep, this God had indeed never ceased to be real.

Something like the saying - "If you don't feel close to God, guess who moved?"

When I was in the faith, I didn't think of it as a con game. As I gradually left, I begin to see Christianity from the outside. The main 'selling point' just struck me as a con game. It seemed more and more obvious the more I considered it.

My problem was more "What is it all for?"

I now see that God has an eternal purpose and just getting saved for it being an end in itself, is a superficial view of the Bible. It is valid that I need to be saved.

What I did not see what that God needed my salvation. Now I can say "Lord Jesus, for Your will and purpose you need me to be filled with You and joined to You."

This really places Christ in the center rather than just my happiness in the center.

When people speak of once believing and now not, it doesn't sound far off to me. Many many people in the Bible seemed to have received more than one calling.

Abraham did not obey God so readily and immediately.
Jacob, made promises to God and then forgot all about them.
Moses tried on his own energy to "do something" for God. And afterwards just kind of said "Forget about the whole thing."

God came to him a second time decades latter as he was tending flocks on the backside of the desert. Then he had lots of arguments. In essence I think he was saying to God at the burning bush - "Look I was once gung ho to do something for the Hebrew slaves as one sent by God when I was young. It blew up in my face. You didn't use me when I was young. Don't come to me now in my old age, because I have no more ambition this way. All I care about now is to just get a little pasture for these flocks. Go get someone else."

Forgive me for musing and probably wondering from your point.

But many people received a calling from God and another calling from God.
In the New Testament Peter was the leading disciple. Even after the resurrection he took the lead to go back to fishing. Then the Lord attracted him a second time.

And this was AFTER the resurrection!

It is not unusual that in the Bible men and women were encountered by a calling God a subsequent time. Anyway, even genuine "Been There Done That" from X Christians (that are real) are not that much out of character with some of the people joined to God throughout the Bible.

My view of what 'spirituality' is really about is always evolving.

At its core, it seems strongly connected with certain philosophical questions. What is the meaning of life? What am I doing here in this life, on this planet? What is it I ought to be doing?

These are difficult questions that have vexed humanity for centuries. Throw in the fact that we are all different - with its implication that one approach may not work for everyone, and it is clear that, whatever one's personal solution, or workable path, it probably won't be trivial to find.

Consider the situation of my former youth pastor. He started as a maker (perhaps user also) of methamphetamine. He became aware that he was running his own life and alienating his family. He 'turned his life over to Jesus', as evangelicals say, and got clean and out of the drug business.

If you were to ask him about that change, he'd ascribe it to the power of Jesus 100%. And to see him, you'd be happy for him (as I am). It's apparent that he has found a solid spiritual path. I'd never wish for that to be taken from him.

However, the reality is that there was more than just Jesus involved. He joined a church and became accountable to other people for his lifestyle. He broke his old habits. He made amends with his family, and they forgave and helped him as he made the change.

In other words, it took much more effort than praying a single prayer, and many more people than just Jesus.

I feel we do people a disservice by suggesting they can solve all of their problems that effortlessly. I cringe to imagine the result in Pastor Larry's life, had he tried to mend his ways with only Jesus and himself in a vacuum.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem

In other words, it took much more effort than praying a single prayer, and many more people than just Jesus.

I feel we do people a disservice by suggesting they can solve all of their problems that effortlessly. I cringe to imagine the result in Pastor Larry's life, had he tried to mend his ways with only Jesus and himself in a vacuum.

You are right. But you know they should pick that up when they begin to examine the word of God themselves.

Let me put it this way - It is effortless if we learn the key to let Christ do it in us.

But learning this takes many failures and much time. I have not completely learned this.

Now Paul learned. Paul pioneered and showed the rest of us how to get in. It is not longer I that live. It is Christ that lives in me.

The idea is that if we can TRUST Him for eternal life, then we have to be able to trust Him in the things of this life. That is to be everything we need. This is an art. This is the highest art form to learn to let God be God within you. That is to let Christ live again on the earth, but this time within you.

But you are absolutely right that we do make it seem that the end result is only to be saved for its own sake. It is somewhat of a permissible error because at places that NT does emphasize that the initial entry into this grace is accessible, very, very accessible.

Misread something.

Originally posted by sonship
What amazed me is that the Friend in God I did have a child, turned out to be real when I found my way to Him again as an adult.

Have you found in your walk with your Friend that He answers specific questions you have? Just to give one example, you may have gotten an answer to, "Why did You create Guinea worms?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracunculiasis


Also, does He assist you in timing your buying and selling of investments?

(I once challenged a Christian man to pray that God would maximize his investment profits, and the Christian told me that the Bible promises an especially tough row to hoe for believers, such that Christians should expect lower than average performance from their investments.)

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Have you found in your walk with your Friend that He answers specific questions you have? Just to give one example, you may have gotten an answer to, "Why did You create Guinea worms?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracunculiasis


Also, does He assist you in timing your buying and selling of investments?

(I once challenged a Christian man to p ...[text shortened]... uch that Christians should expect lower than average performance from their investments.)

Have you found in your walk with your Friend that He answers specific questions you have?

Yes. The Lord has answer some specific prayer in a specific way.

Just to give one example, you may have gotten an answer to, "Why did You create Guinea worms?"

Though I have not looked it up, I gather that you are speaking about a parasite. Correct?

I have never asks that of God in prayer. However, I do believe that I understand that in the Natural world, since the fall of man, God created some physical things to help teach us of spiritual problems.

When Adam sinned, God told him that thorns an thistles would grow up and be a nuisance to him. What I derive from this by extrapolation, is that many designed things in the natural world are in existence along with beautiful things to remind us and teach us of the problems of a fallen world.

Now I do not know exactly HOW God did this. The common cold may be something that morphed into a problem and nuisance. Perhaps it was originally something else. As I said I do not know HOW God did this.

But your parasites, your tornadoes, your deseases, your termites, your mosquito, your leeches, your ticks, your lice, your ringworm, and cancer, and other diseases are all designed as well as the positive things we creationists would boast of.

These are reminders that the world is not what it should be. And I do not mean that these are lessons only for Christians or for those reading the Bible. These negative designs are there for mankind as a whole.

Your second question is addressed below

Also, does He assist you in timing your buying and selling of investments?

One of the areas in which God is very consistent in my life has been in responding to indications that I TRUST in Him in the handling of my finances.

This is a short post and not a long testimonial. But the consistancy with which God comes through proving that He can supply my need (not my want - my NEED), like clockwork, is in responding to indications that I can trust Him.

In giving out of trust to His work, very consistently, very dependably God has shown me that He can meet my needs.

Now this does not mean that He always reimburses me with money when I give money to His cause. But it it is to say in SOME way, God comes through to make my burden proportionally less troublesome to prove that He knows the sacrifice and takes up the slack.

He is more than faithful. It is impossible to out give Him in generosity. And if there is not a money return there may be something given or something otherwise which balances the books. I learn that if I trust Him there is no need for anxiety.

That is all I will say at this moment. And I do not have enough experience of this as some Christians or as much as I should (to some shame). But I DO have some experience.

Hoard unto poverty.
Give generously and cheerfully unto bounty.

That has been my experience.

(I once challenged a Christian man to pray that God would maximize his investment profits, and the Christian told me that the Bible promises an especially tough row to hoe for believers, such that Christians should expect lower than average performance from their investments.)

It is foolish to think God is the big ATM in the sky.
It is foolish to think that every idle request to satisfy upon one's greed or anxiety will be instantly met by God.

This reminds me of the Chinese peasant who asked the gifted Chinese Christian Watchman Nee -

"If I believe in Jesus will He put more rice on my table?"
Nee replied "If you believe in Jesus the rice bowl will be broken."

The meaning is that Jesus Christ is out to break the very anxiety you have about your living and replace it with calm and peaceful trust in His faithfulness.

But if you do want someone with ACCOUNTING skills who is a Christian to show you a substantial record of God's faithfulness, I think that you should be able to find some humble non-sensational writers out there who would stake their professional career on teaching that in the area of finances God is faithful and responds to consistent trust in that realm.

Do not consult the "Get Rich" - Prosperity Gospel preachers of Televangelism. Do not consult with the "Name It and Claim It" type of televangelists.

But there are a few humble Christians who know the technical skill of keeping books who I think would vouch for the fact that God's faithfulness can be counted on to meet your need.

I have nothing to say about God helping you play the numbers or invest in the stock exchange or things of that nature indicating brute greedy indulgence in Mammon.

I would say it is a reliable spiritual principle -

Hoard unto poverty.
Give unto the Lord unto full supply and bounty.

Originally posted by sonship
Do not consult the "Get Rich" Prosperity Preachers of Televangelism. Do not consult with the "Name It and Claim It" type of televangelists.

Have you had success praying false televangelists off the air? Or getting them to remain on air but change to true teachings?

Or do they constitute more thistles that God planned to have on broadcasts in order to further His desires for the human race?

(I am not trying to be argumentative. I'm just fascinated at the variety of answers I have gotten from Bible believers over my many years of living.)

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II

Have you had success praying false televangelists off the air? Or getting them to remain on air but change to true teachings?

Paul Dirac, would I be right to assume you are kind of fishing cynically for some skeptical points ? I see you say below you are not trying to be argumentative. Neither am I really.

Is that the kind of drift we have here ?
It is not hard to concoct the kinds of questions you are now asking.
Its not a big deal Paul. I can do that too.

I think I will just reiterate my point in some words. "Give us this day our daily bread" is an example Christ taught us to pray as to trust God for our practical needs. It is not a prayer for more greedy love of mammon.

Seek FIRST His kingdom and His righteousness and all the things we legitimately need (not greeditly want to indulge in), but legitimately require will be provided.

Perhaps you might consider the biography of George Muller. Through his hands passed millions of dollars for his orphanages which he ran out of sheer faith unto God, and not for his glory.

In history there are a number of testimonies of how God allowed some servant to handle riches because of their faith and living UNTO His kingdom.

Please do not turn this into a cheap matter with cynical off the cuff cracks.
You'll find me not being a Christian apologist but ignoring little quips.

Or do they constitute more thistles that God planned to have on broadcasts in order to further His desires for the human race?

(I am not trying to be argumentative. I'm just fascinated at the variety of answers I have gotten from Bible believers over my many years of living.)

In Second Timothy 3:13 Paul told his younger co-worker to expect that imposters and phonies bringing disrepute to the Gospel will go from bad to worse, not that they would be eliminated entirely soon.

New American Standard Bible
But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

King James Bible
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Yes, I have seen some evil operations shut down by God through prayer.
I have seen some men judged severely because of the authoritative prayer of Christians involved in spiritual warfare.

Before the second coming of Christ, we do expect that evil doers of all kinds will go from bad to WORSE. We, however, do not want to be among them. Right?

This man's biography has inspired many people in the demonstration of God's faithfulness in providing financially in response to prayer.

George Muller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

Originally posted by sonship
I think I will just reiterate my point in some words. "Give us this day our daily bread" is an example Christ taught us to pray as to trust God for our practical needs. It is not a prayer for more greedy love of mammon.

Have you done any reading on the Donner Party disaster?

There was much prayer and Bible reading in the Sierra Mountains where they were trapped by snow for the winter. All became emaciated. Some died from starvation and/or exposure to cold.

So even when it comes down to Bible believers receiving enough nutrients to survive a winter, your deity seems not dependable.

I am currently reading a book about Floyd Collins, who was trapped in a cave in Kentucky in the 1920s. The local population knew where he was--and after four days people across the USA knew his situation through newspaper articles. There was said to be much praying, yet he could not be extricated in time to prevent his death.

Am I not properly interpreting what you mean when you say God meets practical needs?

Originally posted by sonship
Paul Dirac, would I be right to assume you are kind of fishing cynically for some skeptical points ?

I'll venture a guess that I am questioning you in a way that you might well question someone who tried witnessing Allah and Islam to you and yours.

Am I the only one who sees a casual callousness in the believer who takes the attitude, "My deity has not allowed me to die of starvation, drowning, or cancer. He loves me! Praise His name," conveniently ignoring the deaths of billions of fellow believers? Sure, some die peacefully in their sleep, bellies full. But that has not been a universal fate for believers, has it?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Am I the only one who sees a casual callousness in the believer who takes the attitude, "My deity has not allowed me to die of starvation, drowning, or cancer. He loves me! Praise His name," conveniently ignoring the deaths of billions of fellow believers? Sure, some die peacefully in their sleep, bellies full. But that is not a universal fate for believers, is it?

While holding religionist beliefs in the supernatural is a natural upshot of the human condition, it is interesting how often fanatical or fundamental or completely self-absorbed religionist beliefs embrace dehumanization ~ sometimes explicit and overt, other times rather oblivious or perhaps unintended ~ of billions and billions of fellow human beings. Recently, for example, we have had a religionist claim that only believers in his particular God figure have human spirit, and another religionist talking about how the belief that an opponent/non-believer will be tortured for eternity in burning agony makes their religionist-life easier. Just two examples. I'd say "casual callousness" understates it.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Have you found in your walk with your Friend that He answers specific questions you have? Just to give one example, you may have gotten an answer to, "Why did You create Guinea worms?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracunculiasis


Also, does He assist you in timing your buying and selling of investments?

(I once challenged a Christian man to p ...[text shortened]... uch that Christians should expect lower than average performance from their investments.)

Jesus said the following:

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

(Matthew 6:33 KJV)