The Con Game

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Have you had success praying false televangelists off the air? Or getting them to remain on air but change to true teachings?

Or do they constitute more thistles that God planned to have on broadcasts in order to further His desires for the human race?

(I am not trying to be argumentative. I'm just fascinated at the variety of answers I have gotten from Bible believers over my many years of living.)

Do not concern yourself with the televangelists. They seem to be doing very well and have plenty to help them with their needs. I suggest that it would be much better for you to be concerned with helping the poor and homeless beggars directly if you can.

Originally posted by sonship
But your parasites, your tornadoes, your deseases, your termites, your mosquito, your leeches, your ticks, your lice, your ringworm, and cancer, and other diseases are all designed as well as the positive things we creationists would boast of.

These are reminders that the world is not what it should be.

Did God arrange heartworm infestations in dogs as a "reminder to humans that the world is not as it should be"?

In these days of medical science veterinarians can treat dogs for heartworms. In doing this, are we modern humans thwarting the will of the Lord?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II

Did God arrange heartworm infestations in dogs as a "reminder to humans that the world is not as it should be"?

All the positive things in the universe point to Jesus Christ. The negative things of the creation which have morphed into evil matters remind us of the fall, Or generally they teach us that things of creation are simply not as they should be.

This engenders a longing in us for a better world, which thing is according to God's will.

When you have pain in your body it indicates that something is wrong. The sicknesses which are more dreaded are the ones in which there may not be any indication that something is wrong. So discomfort and pain are nature's and the God of nature's way to clue us that things are out of order.

How terrible it would be if there were no indications that sin and death were eating away at us.

I mentioned Genesis 3:18 - "Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil will you eat of it all the days of your life. And THORNS and THISTLES it will bring forth for you ..."

Things of nuisance and bother, things evil and damaging, things troublesome are all result of the curse. They humble us and remind us that we have lost to a large extent the dominion which God ordained for man to have over creation. (Genesis 1:26,27)

In the verses about Christ's reign on the earth we sometimes see unusual things like that Bible saying, for example, the trees will clap their hands so as to seem to be rejoicing -

Isaiah 5;12 - "For you will out with rejoicing and you will be led forth in peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth before you with a ringing shout, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands. In place of the thornbush, the fir tree will come up. In place of the brier, the myrtle will come up; And it will be to Jehovah as a name, as an eternal sign that will not be cut off."

The idea is the NATURE will respond to the fulfillment of God's will for His people. The Creation which has collapsed into curse will be gloriously transformed into the paradise God intended it for man.

I therefore expect that mosquito, the leech, the tape worm, the lice, and other accursed nuisances and dangers of the fall will be dealt with.

Isaiah 11 also speaks of this transformation from the curse in nature -

"And the wolf will dwell with the lamb; And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;

And the boy will lead them about. The cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the cobra's hole, And upon the viper's den the weaned child will stretch his hand.

They will not harm nor destroy in all My holy mountain. For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as water covers the sea."

So you see the salvation unfolding for His people effects the recovery of a paradise like creation. And we may extend this understanding to evil things sense discovered by more modern science.

In these days of medical science veterinarians can treat dogs for heartworms. In doing this, are we modern humans thwarting the will of the Lord?

No, I do not think we need to tell veterinarians of animals or doctors of humans that they are working against God's will.

You may know that the Gospel writer Luke , a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul, was a medical doctor.

Neither do I think the animal doctor needs to include in his or her services a reminder that God is reminding the pet owner of the fall of man because their pet got sick.

Nor does the dog heartworm medicine need to have a label on it reminding the pet owner that the pet is sick because of the curse upon creation stemming from Adam's fall.

The Christian doctor and the Christian pet owner may have an advantage because he or she realizes that these misfortunes are a part of Adam's fallen world but are temporary.

So God is punishing dogs for the actions of man?

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
So God is punishing dogs for the actions of man?

So God is punishing dogs for the actions of man?

I anticipate questions like this to be attempts to push a matter into what appears as an absurd concept.

This kind of question could be just someone's cynicism to make very specific what I have shared here so as to make it appear silly.

"Oh. I see. God is punishing my pet cat. God is punishing my pet doggy."

Back up and see the general picture. Adam rebelled against God. The creation intended to be under his deputy authority collapsed in such a way that misfortune effects creatures.

For those who love God, we know that God causes all things to work together for good. We have an inextinguishable hope in spite of these tragedies along the way.

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

Now for all of you who plan to line up questions like this -

"So my dog is being punished by God?"

"So my gold fish has sinned and is being punished?"

" So the round worm is doing God's will in the sick child's body?"

etc. etc. etc.

If you all plan to pepper me with questions like this to make frivolous the matter of the collapse of creation from Adam's rebellion, please forgive me if I am not impressed with your cleverness.

Man is doing all the science he can to gain dominion of the natural world. Man was originally ordained to have this dominion on behalf of God. We lost this.

And what we all really need to do, who long for the curse to be subdued, is to come to the Son of God as the Lord and Savior. We must take the lead to be brought again under the heading up of all things under the proper Man under the headship of God.

Sonship, I don't want you to feel like I am browbeating you, so I will probably make this be my last post in this particular thread. Answer it if you care to, but don't feel compelled to answer it.

There is evidence for bite marks in fossil bones. See for instance this page:
http://museum.wa.gov.au/explore/dinosaur-discovery/bite-marks

Do you believe that the Lord was encouraging biting and tearing in the Cretaceous era? And if "Yes" is your answer, does that commit you to claiming there were already humans to observe the action in that era, so that they could feel chastened by Adam's sin?

Originally posted by sonship
I anticipate questions like this to be attempts to push a matter into what appears as an absurd concept. This kind of question could be just someone's cynicism to make very specific what I have shared here so as to make it appear silly.

Or, the question ~ and your ever so slightly sulky reply ~ might indicate that you are, in fact, propagating "an absurd concept" that is "silly" (your words, not mine).

Originally posted by sonship
If you all plan to pepper me with questions like this to make frivolous the matter of the collapse of creation from Adam's rebellion, please forgive me if I am not impressed with your cleverness.

The enquiries place valid question marks over the coherence of your claims. Declaring yourself "not impressed" with the "cleverness" of inconvenient questions makes the dogma you are putting forward seem awfully brittle in the face of curious enquiries about whether it is, in fact, absurd or not.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II

Do you believe that the Lord was encouraging biting and tearing in the Cretaceous era? And if "Yes" is your answer, does that commit you to claiming there were already humans to observe the action in that era, so that they could feel chastened by Adam's sin?

The apparent carnivorous behavior of very ancient animals is not something I have overlooked in contemplating what I believe. These questions I asked of myself years ago as I formed my beliefs.

So How does the "curse like" evidence of unknown animals which no longer exist relate to the fall of Adam ?

It is a good question. And I am not sure.
I think though that if this evidence is of a pre-adamic era that it demonstrates that the same effects were in existence before God created man.

Was there a cursed world in which Adam was placed in a "garden" like sphere and charged to keep it OUT ?

I'm not sure.

Was this evidence of God's transcendence over Time kind of retroactively letting the prior sin of Satan and his hordes have a similar effect, because in His foreknowledge He KNEW man would make a wrong choice ?

This would be somewhat encredible. But it is possible. When we examine God's sovereign foreknowledge in, for instance, the story of Joseph in Genesis, it is within His power. That is to foreknow what choices the free will will take.

I think in a mysterious matter like this probably I would elect for a view of God's transcendence over time, His foreknowledge, His ability to arrange all things with a foreknowing which prepares the outworking of His will.

The question you ask, I have contemplated. And I still contemplate.
If these things occurred BEFORE the creation of Adam, I think they also [edited] indicate a prior rebellion against God's will.

I have not yet at least opted for considering Satan's fall, and all sin and death in the world happening in TIME only after Adam's creation. This would be a Young Earth explanation. They would say of course the carnivorous dinosaurs are something after Adam's creation and during the human race.

While we contemplate that puzzle though, we are very clear that all time and creation have a central kernel - the incarnation, death and resurrection and enthronement of the Son of God. This is so central to the entire course of time that in ways marvelous to our understanding, God has orchestrated everything in His transcendence and foreknowledge capable of an uncreated and eternal Wisdom and Knowledge.

Originally posted by sonship

Do you believe that the Lord was encouraging biting and tearing in the Cretaceous era? And if "Yes" is your answer, does that commit you to claiming there were already humans to observe the action in that era, so that they could feel chastened by Adam's sin?

The apparent carnivorous behavior of very ancient animals is not something I h ...[text shortened]... in His transcendence and foreknowledge capable of an uncreated and eternal Wisdom and Knowledge.

You are not sure? Then don't call yourself a Christian. It was after Adam sinned that God began His curses. And there was no Cretaceous era, for that was made up by evolutionists. Read Genesis again, please.

Originally posted by FMF
The enquiries place valid question marks over the coherence of your claims. Declaring yourself "not impressed" with the "cleverness" of inconvenient questions makes the dogma you are putting forward seem awfully brittle in the face of curious enquiries about whether it is, in fact, absurd or not.

"curious inquiries"??

No, I doubt it. The nature of these supposed "curious inquiries" is merely as he claims, to attempt to make his argument seem silly, just as you are doing.

If their inquiry was for the purpose of seeking knowledge, to find a way to God, they certainly wouldn't be so smarmy with their assumption of their own "correctness", as so many of your own posts are.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are not sure? Then don't call yourself a Christian. It was after Adam sinned that God began His curses. And there was no Cretaceous era, for that was made up by evolutionists. Read Genesis again, please.

Any day, I would rather deal with an "unsure" Christian, than with one who has misinterpreted the Bible and shoehorned its concepts in with his own ill-educated knowledge. I respect the Christian who is "unsure" enough about his own human failings that he asks God for the wisdom to take in the truth of His Word over the one who has already made up his mind and made wrong assumptions about what the Word of God actually says and doesn't say.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The nature of these supposed "curious inquiries" is merely as he claims, to attempt to make his argument seem silly, just as you are doing.

If the concept is not absurd, and if the argument is not silly, then it will withstand questions.

Originally posted by Suzianne
If their inquiry was for the purpose of seeking knowledge, to find a way to God, they certainly wouldn't be so smarmy with their assumption of their own "correctness", as so many of your own posts are.

I think Paul Dirac II's line of questioning on this thread has been interesting. I also think both sonship's "assumption of [his] own correctness" and his reaction to Paul Dirac II's line of questioning are interesting.

Originally posted by Suzianne
If their inquiry was for the purpose of seeking knowledge, to find a way to God, they certainly wouldn't be so smarmy with their assumption of their own "correctness", as so many of your own posts are.

How many regular posters, both Christians and non-Christians, including yourself and me, do you think post here without an "assumption of their own correctness"?