The creative pathway

@sonship said
Look at the skill that must have been involved in the creation of the natural laws by which the universe runs.

Convert that ability and authority into the skill with which moral laws must have been designed.

Look at the skill that must have been involved in the creation of the natural laws by which the universe runs.

OK, I have speculated about that. OK. So?

Convert that ability and authority into the skill with which moral laws must have been designed.

"Convert" it? Why?

"Moral laws must have been designed" Why?

Even if there is a creator being or creator entity of some type, why do all theists then make this gigantic leap to believing that the existence of such an entity means there must surely be 'everlasting life' available as some kind of reward for having settled on the 'there is a creator' explanation and then signed up to whatever historical, psychological and anthropological clutter attendant thereto?

@FMF

Maybe we should both each start a blog. eh?

@sonship said
@FMF

Maybe we should both each start a blog. eh?

I run several blogs and chatboxes and online radio programmes already sonship.

When I suggest to you that you take your often dissent-averse recitative monologues to a blog where you can exercise full control, it is when I sense you are avoiding or copping out of the back and forth of a genuine conversation because you just want to preach unhindered.

How ironic, then, that ~ unlike the way I do ~ you are making the start-a-blog suggestion now at this point in what has been a genuine back and forth conversation.

@fmf said

Even if there is a creator being or creator entity of some type, why do all theists then make this gigantic leap to believing that the existence of such an entity means there must surely be 'everlasting life' available as some kind of reward for having settled on the 'there is a creator' explanation and then signed up to whatever historical, psychological and anthropological clutter attendant thereto?

Because this "Creator Entity" said so.

@Suzianne

FMF writes:

Even if there is a creator being or creator entity of some type, why do all theists then make this gigantic leap to believing that the existence of such an entity means there must surely be 'everlasting life' available as some kind of reward for having settled on the 'there is a creator' explanation and then signed up to whatever historical, psychological and anthropological clutter attendant thereto?

The sixty six books unfolding the work and word of God do not constitute a quicky "gigantic leap" in logic.

Rather from Adam through Abraham through Moses through the history of Israel through One Who died and rose, and spoke of eternal life is a step by step revelation of eternal life.

The ever unfolding of the matter occurred not suddenly but over some 1600 years of God speaking to the world.

And the indwelling Holy Spirit coming into men and women is a seal, a fortaste, an appetizer of something we detect is incredible and wonderful.

"In whom you also, hearing the word of the truth of the gospel of your salvation, in whom also believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of the acquired possession." [/b] (Eph. 1:13,14)

We have deep within our being a sealing "down payment" as a "pledge", a foretaste that more of this enjoyment is to come.

"But He who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God,

Who has also sealed us and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts." (2 Cor. 1:22)

@sonship said
FMF writes:

Even if there is a creator being or creator entity of some type, why do all theists then make this gigantic leap to believing that the existence of such an entity means there must surely be 'everlasting life' available as some kind of reward for having settled on the 'there is a creator' explanation and then signed up to whatever historical, psychologi ...[text shortened]... ho has also sealed us and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts." (2 Cor. 1:22) [/b]

The 'there is a creator, therefore, we must be able to live forever' leap is one made by countless religions ~ not just yours ~ and it is made not based on evidence but on conjecture and aspiration. I see it as part and parcel of human nature rather than an indicator of reality.

@suzianne said
Because this "Creator Entity" said so.

And what do you think happens to me after I die if I don't believe any "Creator Entity" said so, including yours?

@fmf said
And what do you think happens to me after I die if I don't believe any "Creator Entity" said so, including yours?

Jesus came with a purpose. To be a Savior for man, who was told in Scripture, "the wages of sin is death". Jesus, who was without sin, died a substitutionary, retributive death for man, thus, man's sin debt was paid by one who had no sin of his own to pay for. If one doesn't believe in these concepts, nor in the value of the gift given to him, and chooses instead to reject this gift, he must then suffer the cost of paying his sin debt himself. Therefore, after death that man is judged, found lacking, and must suffer the wages of sin, or the second death. This is the message of the Bible. Deny God and die. Accept God and live. It's amazingly simple, even for you. That you do not believe the message, and in fact deny salvation, then basically, you're on your own, bub. Deal with it.


Similarly, not believing in guns will not magically stop you from being shot to death.

@suzianne said
This is the message of the Bible. Deny God and die. Accept God and live.

FMF: And what do you think happens to me after I die if I don't believe any "Creator Entity" said so, including yours?

This is the message of the Bible. Deny God and die. Accept God and live.

So, posters like sonship and KellyJay have got "the message of the Bible" completely wrong on this matter, is that what you mean?

@suzianne said
Deny God and die. Accept God and live. It's amazingly simple, even for you. That you do not believe the message, and in fact deny salvation, then basically, you're on your own, bub. Deal with it.

Deal with what?

I already believe I am going to die and that that is the end.

You believing that you are not going to die has no supposed or hypothetical or practical moral implications for me.

So I don't see that I have to "deal with" anything as a result of hearing what you believe about "salvation".

@fmf said
Deal with what?

I already believe I am going to die and that that is the end.

You believing that you are not going to die has no supposed or hypothetical or practical moral implications for me.

So I don't see that I have to "deal with" anything as a result of hearing what you believe about "salvation".

Well, apparently, you seem to be floundering and upset about it.

You have devoted what amounts to pages and pages of reply to posters like KJ and sonship over it.

Now you say, "I already believe I am going to die and that that is the end."

Then why drive your point (whatever it is) to them home with repeated whacks on the sledgehammer?

Why do you give a damn what they say?

Apparently you care a great deal.

If you have "dealt with it" as you say, then why continue to cry to them, repeatedly, endlessly, in an internet message forum about it?

Your stated words and your actions don't exactly match up here.

@fmf said
FMF: And what do you think happens to me after I die if I don't believe any "Creator Entity" said so, including yours?

This is the message of the Bible. Deny God and die. Accept God and live.

So, posters like sonship and KellyJay have got "the message of the Bible" completely wrong on this matter, is that what you mean?

This may come as a complete surprise to you, but I do not speak for them, nor they for me.

@suzianne said
Well, apparently, you seem to be floundering and upset about it.

I am neither "floundering" nor "upset" about it.

My take on 'fear of death' can be found here: Thread 179090

@suzianne said
This may come as a complete surprise to you, but I do not speak for them, nor they for me.

Do you speak for yourself, that's what I am getting at. Do YOU believe posters like sonship and KellyJay have got "the message of the Bible" completely wrong on the matter of what happens to non-believers after they die? I am not asking you to "speak for them". I am asking you to speak for you.

@suzianne said
You have devoted what amounts to pages and pages of reply to posters like KJ and sonship over it.

It's an interesting topic. And sonship, KellyJay and I are active posters.