Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Albion
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    22 Jan '19 16:47
    Can it be said that human history is a prelude to the creation event?
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    22 Jan '19 18:16
    @entropysail

    In a sense - Yes. Not in every sense.

    But biblically - Yes. This concept might have some legitimate ground. Human history comes before the "new creation" of total climax and consummation of God's eternal purpose fulfilled seen in the last two chapters of the Bible - Revelation 21 and 22.

    Christ calls Himself "the beginning of the creation of God" . And I believe that in that instance He means the beginning of the final new creation of the new heaven and new earth with the new eternal city New Jerusalem of all the saved people brought forth from the previous old creation.

    [b] "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; who is the BEGINNING, FIrstborn from among the dead, that He might have the first place in all things." (Col. 1:17,18)

    [quote] And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write:

    These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD." (Rev. 3:14)


    These verses would indicate that in some sense, in human history, Jesus accomplished some things which are PRE- or BEFORE the eternal new creation of the Creating God.
  3. Albion
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    22 Jan '19 18:25
    Does that mean that mankind could end up creating God?
  4. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    22 Jan '19 18:26
    @entropysail said
    Does that mean that mankind could end up creating God?
    It already has.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jan '19 18:54
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    It already has.
    Thousands of them.
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    22 Jan '19 19:50
    @entropysail

    Does that mean that mankind could end up creating God?


    I don't think so. I think mankind can create idols.
    All kinds of idols have been created by human beings.

    By definition I don't think mankind could genuinely create a Person for whom a greater could not exist.

    The cause of something should be greater than the effect.
    If mankind could an effect greater than himself how would man be able to bestow attributes upon that Person which man did not himself have to bestow.

    Because the cause must be greater than the effect I think it would be the other way around that our Creator is God.

    But man has created many idols and called them gods.
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    22 Jan '19 19:55
    @sonship said
    @entropysail

    Does that mean that mankind could end up creating God?


    I don't think so. I think mankind can create idols.
    All kinds of idols have been created by human beings.

    By definition I don't think mankind could genuinely create a Person for whom a greater could not exist.

    The cause of something should be greater than the effect.
    If ma ...[text shortened]... e other way around that our Creator is God.

    But man has created many idols and called them gods.
    Of course man cannot 'create' God. But he can, and has, created the 'idea' of such a divine being (s) to give answers and meaning to life (where none are available). And as FMF has indicated, this has been down thousands of times throughout history (such is the fear in man of his own mortality and need for hope and reassurance).
  8. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    23 Jan '19 04:16
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Of course man cannot 'create' God. But he can, and has, created the 'idea' of such a divine being (s) to give answers and meaning to life (where none are available). And as FMF has indicated, this has been down thousands of times throughout history (such is the fear in man of his own mortality and need for hope and reassurance).
    With the old gods [Greek / Roman], might the motivation be to deify human behavior by making the gods essentially human-like in their behavior, only with much more power at their fingertips? Those gods were lustful, jealous, violent, merciful, etc. in turns.
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    23 Jan '19 05:02
    @sonship said
    I don't think so. I think mankind can create idols.
    All kinds of idols have been created by human beings.

    By definition I don't think mankind could genuinely create a Person for whom a greater could not exist.
    I don't think mankind could genuinely create a Person for whom a greater could not exist.

    Of course, they can. There is nothing to stop them. And all it needs then is for ideologues like you to make assertions like this about whatever the writers have come up with and thus suggest that it wasn't the writers who came up with it.
  10. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    23 Jan '19 08:32
    @bigdoggproblem said
    With the old gods [Greek / Roman], might the motivation be to deify human behavior by making the gods essentially human-like in their behavior, only with much more power at their fingertips? Those gods were lustful, jealous, violent, merciful, etc. in turns.
    Yes, good point.
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    23 Jan '19 15:3011 edits
    @FMF

    Of course, they can. There is nothing to stop them. And all it needs then is for ideologues like you to make assertions like this about whatever the writers have come up with and thus suggest that it wasn't the writers who came up with it.


    No it is not about -

    "WHATEVER ... the writers have come up with".

    That is why there was something called the canon of the Hebrew Bible and the canon of the New Testament. There was divinely guided recognition of writings among MANY that bore authority of inspiration.

    Not "WHATEVER" good sounding writings were recognized as having the same authority.

    If that had been the case then BOTH the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament might contain manifold MORE writings which had a "spiritual" or "sacred" SOUND to it. And they may even have HAD some spiritual benefit.

    "Whatever sounds godly, spiritual, gave some answers, was revered" became a record of God's word to us, is not the case. Forgeries, well INTENDED other writings, sayings with SOME wisdom in themselves, imitations, sermons, legends, proverbs, teachings have circulated in mass from people.

    The Holy Spirit led God's people to recognize those authoritative books and separate them from many other "good" writings which did not pass the test of divine inspiration.

    there may have been things interesting and even true in those apocryphal and pseudepigraphal writings. And even sometimes reference is made to other books in the canon of the Old and New Testaments.

    And people like YOU protest that "Why didn't they include the Book of Enoch or the Gospel of Thomas or the Apocalypse of Peter or the Epistle of Barnabas equally in the Old and New Testament canon? Its not fair."

    So I don't believe it is the case -

    And all it needs then is for ideologues like you to make assertions like this about whatever the writers have come up with and thus suggest that it wasn't the writers who came up with it.


    Your generalization I do not accept as the case with God communicating to man over many centuries.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    23 Jan '19 15:57
    @sonship said
    @FMF

    Of course, they can. There is nothing to stop them. And all it needs then is for ideologues like you to make assertions like this about whatever the writers have come up with and thus suggest that it wasn't the writers who came up with it.


    No it is not about -

    "WHATEVER ... the writers have come up with".

    That is why there was some ...[text shortened]... Your generalization I do not accept as the case with God communicating to man over many centuries.
    The point is, humans can conjure up whatever religions they want, regardless of whether god or gods exist.
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    23 Jan '19 22:221 edit
    @fmf said
    The point is, humans can conjure up whatever religions they want, regardless of whether god or gods exist.
    I took the point to be here:

    I don't think mankind could genuinely create a Person for whom a greater could not exist.

    Of course, they can. There is nothing to stop them. And all it needs then is for ideologues like you to make assertions like this about whatever the writers have come up with and thus suggest that it wasn't the writers who came up with it.


    My point is they could not create such a Person.

    The existence of that Person could not come forth from their imagination to reality.

    God could not be created by humans.
    Idols could.

    God, by definition, could not be created for God is uncreated and eternal by definition. God is self existing and ever existing.

    If anything exists then something as an ultimate Source of all being has to have existed from eternity. That is the Creator - God.

    Created man could not produce uncreated God.
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    23 Jan '19 23:23
    @entropysail said
    Can it be said that human history is a prelude to the creation event?
    Yes, it makes a lot more sense than a lot of other rubbish here
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    24 Jan '19 00:31
    @sonship said
    My point is they could not create such a Person.

    The existence of that Person could not come forth from their imagination to reality.
    Writers can create mythology and that mythology can depict any being or person the writers want. It then becomes a "reality" in the imaginations of adherents.

    There is no "living Jesus" that "exists", for example. The man has been stone dead for 2,000 years. But writers have created a counterfactual or metaphorical "reality" in your mind, i.e. he is "still living" in so far as the things he is said to have done and who he is said to have been are still very, very important and vivid to his followers 20 centuries on. Writers have conjured this up with words on the page. People like you perpetuate the writers' creations with your words on computer screens.

    Writers can conjure up any superstition-based narratives or doctrines they want; these create "reality" in so far as there are people [like you] who are convinced they are "real".
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