checkbaiter and whodey,
The Holy Spirit is the final stage of the Triune God reaching to man. The Father is the Source of divine life. The Son is the expression of the divine life. And the Holy Spirit is the transmission of the divine life into man's being.
Think of the power plant, the electric cables, and the flow of electricity. This is a analogy. And it is not perfect. But many of us find it helpful.
Far away is the power plant that is the source of the electrical power.
Then there are the cables which extend from the power plant and connect to our homes. The cables join our homes to the power plant. Then lastly there is the transmission of the power over the lines into our homes.
The voltage, the flow, and the transmission of the electrical power from the source, over the wires, into our homes, is like the Holy Spirit.
By this you should see that the Trinity for dispensing the divine life of God into man. The Father is the Source of life. The Son joins man and the Source of life. The Son joins man to God. And the Holy Spirit is the impartation and transmission of the divine life from the Father, by the Son, into the being of man.
What God IS cannot be separated from what God DOES.
God is triune, God is the Trinity because what God does is intrinsically bound up with what God is. He is about dispensing His life and nature into man.
God wants to flow out of Himself into man to be man's life and life supply, for man's enjoyment and for God's administration and glory.
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Originally posted by whodeyHe (Jesus) is saying that you Peter, are a pebble, which is blown about by every wind of doctrine, but on Me(Jesus the Rock) I will build my church.
Matthew 16:18 "And I say also to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock; I will build my church and the gates of hell hsall not prevail against it."
So you are saying that Jesus was calling Peter a rock yet the prophesy had nothing to do with Peter being the rock upon which Christ would build his church? Don't get me wrong, Christ is Peter's foundat ...[text shortened]... there is no mistaking this to be a prophesy. Christ said that "I WILL" do such and such.
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Originally posted by jaywillThere is nothing here of any substance biblically. I could make up anything I want as well. The fact is, God is one. He is not "triune" anything. I am not here to convince you. If you want to believe in a three headed god, feel free. I believe in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth and happens to be the Father of Jesus Christ. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And I believe the Holy Spirit is God and His gift is holy spirit(lower case). Holy spirit is not a person, it is the power of God. Holy spirit is like the wind. It has power but is not a person nor an entity. The bible calls God," the God and Father of Jesus Christ". I believe what it says not tradition. Jesus has a God.
checkbaiter and whodey,
The Holy Spirit is the final stage of the Triune God reaching to man. The Father is the Source of divine life. The Son is the expression of the divine life. And the Holy Spirit is the transmission of the divine life into man's being.
Think of the power plant, the electric cables, and the flow of electricity. This is a anal ...[text shortened]... o be man's life and life supply, for man's enjoyment and for God's administration and glory.
Originally posted by checkbaiterI agree with you 110%.
There is nothing here of any substance biblically. I could make up anything I want as well. The fact is, God is one. He is not "triune" anything. I am not here to convince you. If you want to believe in a three headed god, feel free. I believe in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth and happens to be the Father of Jesus Christ. I believe in one Lord, ...[text shortened]... the God and Father of Jesus Christ". I believe what it says not tradition. Jesus has a God.
There is a guy in India called Satya Sai Baba, who is referred to as God by his devotees. The reason being he is capable of doing some amazing things, much like what a magician will do but without the magic. So they call him 'God' as that is their concept of what God is. The story was the same with primitive tribes throughout history. They quickly called the white Europeans god as they appeared to be more powerful.
Maybe is a human weakness that causes us to call every entity more powerful than ourselves God.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Biblically, wives referred to their husbands as Lord/God/Master.🙂
I agree with you 110%.
There is a guy in India called Satya Sai Baba, who is referred to as God by his devotees. The reason being he is capable of doing some amazing things, much like what a magician will do but without the magic. So they call him 'God' as that is their concept of what God is. The story was the same with primitive tribes throughout histor ...[text shortened]... aybe is a human weakness that causes us to call every entity more powerful than ourselves God.
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There is nothing here of any substance biblically. I could make up anything I want as well. The fact is, God is one. He is not "triune" anything.
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I wrote biblical concepts. Here's one confirming passage. Here Jesus is speaking about the operation of the Holy Spirit:
"He will gloridy Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you. All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:15)
The Father is the source of all that the Son has:
"All that the Father has is Mine ..."
What the Son has will be conveyed to the disciples by the Holy Spirit:
"He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you ... He receives of Min and will declare it to you."
The Father is the Source. The Son embodies all that the Father has. And the Holy Spirit imparts, conveys, declares, and transfers all these riches to the disciples.
Based on John 16:13-15 and particularly verse 15, you have no case to say my analogy is not biblical. The Father is the Source. The Son is the expression. And the Holy Spirit is the transmission of what the Father has and has given to the Son into the believers.
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I am not here to convince you. If you want to believe in a three headed god, feel free.
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This is your slander. The ancient brothers came up with the term Trinity to try to explain in human words something in the Bible which is very mysterious. That is:
1.) The Father is called God. " ... God the Father ..." (1 Peter 1:2)
2.) The Son is called God. "But of the Son, 'Your throne O God ..." (Heb. 1:8)
3.) The Holy Spirit is called God. "Why has Satan filled your heart to deceive the Holy Spirit ... You have not lied to men but to God" (See Acts 5:3,4)
Since the Bible teaches that the Father is God and the Son of God is God and the Holy Spirit is God, the ancient brothers in order to defend the truth arose a the term Triune God or Trinity.
And since the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit have one NAME the concept of the Triune God is biblical:
" ... baptizing them into the NAME [SINGULAR] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ..." (Matt. 28:19)
That was not into the NAMES as plural but into the singular NAME. We might well say then that the One name of God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
Arians and Unitarians and Trithiests and Modalists all lose the case.
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I believe in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth and happens to be the Father of Jesus Christ.
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I also believe in one God.
The Father is the one God. The Son is also the one God. And the Holy Spirit is the one God.
The child born shall be called Mighty God. And the Son given shall be called Eternal Father - (Isaiah 9:6). Unitarian twistings are of no avail.
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I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
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One Lord Jesus Christ. Okay me also. But I also believe in the kingdom "of our Lord and of His Christ" (Revelation 11:15)
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ."
Here the Father is called the one Lord and the Lord Jesus Christ is His Christ. So we have here also an indication of the Triune God.
Not only so but 2 Corinthians 3:17 definitely and plainly states that "the Lord is the Spirit".
So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are called Lord in the Bible.
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And I believe the Holy Spirit is God and His gift is holy spirit(lower case). Holy spirit is not a person, it is the power of God. Holy spirit is like the wind. It has power but is not a person nor an entity. The bible calls God," the God and Father of Jesus Christ". I believe what it says not tradition. Jesus has a God.
The Holy Spirit is a speaking "Person". Seven times in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 we read this passage:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (Rev.2:7,11,17,29;3:6,13,22)
Not only so. But each of the seven letters begins with Christ talking and ends with a call to hear what the Spirit says.
So the Holy Spirit is a "Person" speaking, saying, and can even be grieved and is called in one passage the Lord - "Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)
We know that the Spirit is also called "the Spirit of life" (Romans 8:3. If He is constituted of life then He must be living and not simply a non-living power.
He is called also the life giving Spirit and that the last Adam became Him:
" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).
Also the Spirit is coupled with the Bride in Revelation proving that the Husband is the Spirit. And they both Husband Spirit and Bride speak together:
"The Spirit and the Bride say, Come!" (Rev. 22:17)
This proves the the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ, has also become the life giving Spirit in His marrying of the Bride the New Jerusalem, His Wife:
" ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17).
"And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come!" (Rev. 22:17)
The Spirit is a living Person who is constituted with divine life and gives life as the "life giving Spirit" and the "Spirit of life".
I could go on and on. But this should suffice for the open minded to see that the concept of the Triune God dispensing the divine life of God is entirely biblical.
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Originally posted by jaywillPlease peruse through this site....it explains my position....
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There is nothing here of any substance biblically. I could make up anything I want as well. The fact is, God is one. He is not "triune" anything.
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I wrote biblical concepts. Here's one confirming passage. Here Jesus is speaking about the operation of the Holy Spirit:
[b ...[text shortened]... sing the divine life of God is entirely biblical.[/b]
Who is Jesus Christ?
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
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Originally posted by jaywillI'm sorry for my "slander", but I get tired sometimes typing the same thing over and over. I have heard the verses you qoute over and over, through the years. To me they hold no water. Please forgive me if I sound rude at times. I understand your postion, that is why I do not condemn a brother in Christ for his beliefs. Jesus is still Lord.....Peace. 🙂
I will look at it this time. But I think you explain yourself fairly well.
Originally posted by checkbaiterIt it forgiven.
I'm sorry for my "slander", but I get tired sometimes typing the same thing over and over. I have heard the verses you qoute over and over, through the years. To me they hold no water. Please forgive me if I sound rude at times. I understand your postion, that is why I do not condemn a brother in Christ for his beliefs. Jesus is still Lord.....Peace. 🙂
I did read many things on your website. Some of which I liked and others I need to examine more closely.
And in turn I would contribute this link to the conversation:
www.triunegod.org/heresies/index.html
Yes, Jesus is Lord.
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Originally posted by jaywillI read the whole thing. I guess I would fall under "Arianism". This would be the closest except I don't see Christ as "temporal". God has given Him eternal life, all authority in heaven and earth, the position as head of the church, the position of King, the "creator" of the "new age", the Saviour, the captain of our salvation, etc. which hardly would make Him temporal. I always say, if you want to know what God is like, you need look no further than Jesus Christ. He is the "image", "reflection" of the Living God. But just as I am not the image of myself, neither is Jesus. I can have a son who has all my characteristics, is always obedient, pleases me to the utmost, fills me with joy, but he is not me. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? God has highly exalted Him but people have gone a step further and made Him God, because of their wrong interpretation of verses like John 5:18...
It it forgiven.
I did read many things on your website. Some of which I liked and others I need to examine more closely.
And in turn I would contribute this link to the conversation:
www.triunegod.org/heresies/index.html
Yes, Jesus is Lord.
John 5:18b
He was even calling God his own father, making himself equal with God. (NIV)
1. The peoples in the time and culture of the Bible knew that children often carried the authority of the family. For example, the son of a king had authority. When Christ said that God was his Father, the Pharisees correctly interpreted that to mean that he had God’s authority on earth, something that Jesus was in fact saying (cp. John 5:17ff).
2. This verse is actually unsupportive of the Trinity. It accurately records that Jesus was saying that God was his father, not that he was himself God, or that he was “God the Son.” It is clear that Jesus’ authority came from the fact that he was the Son of God, not God Himself.
3. The concept of people being “equal” is found in several places in the Bible. For example, when Joseph was ruling Egypt under Pharaoh, Judah said to him, “You are equal to Pharaoh himself” (Gen. 44:18). Paul wrote about men who wanted to be considered “equal with us” (2 Cor. 11:12). No Christian we are aware of believes that Joseph and Pharaoh or Paul and his opponents are “of one substance,” and make up “one being” simply because they are called “equal.” We believe that John 5:18 should be handled like the other verses that mention equality. Jesus was using God’s power and authority on earth, and was thus “equal” to God in the same way Joseph, who was using Pharaoh’s authority and power, was equal to Pharaoh.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThank you for taking the time to examine that website.
I read the whole thing. I guess I would fall under "Arianism". This would be the closest except I don't see Christ as "temporal". God has given Him eternal life, all authority in heaven and earth, the position as head of the church, the position of King, the "creator" of the "new age", the Saviour, the captain of our salvation, etc. which hardly would m same way Joseph, who was using Pharaoh’s authority and power, was equal to Pharaoh.
I may be unable to fellowship with you for a few days.
I think we Christians must be careful not to fall into one or the other extreme view. If we do not uphold that the man Jesus is truly a created man (for Man is an item of God's creation - (Gen. 1:26,28) we err on one side. But if we do not uphold the absolute Deity of Jesus on the other side we also quite err.
This is why some of us like the word "Mingle", i.e. Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man. To mingle two or more things together is to combine them in such a way that the two entities remain distinguishable in the combination.
In Jesus Christ we see God mingled with man. Keep in mind my definition of the word mingle.
You had some things to say about John 5:17,18. I am not sure that anyone I have learned from solely looks to that particular passage to be the only or even the strongest support for a belief in the Trinity. Perhaps someone you met feels that way.
Though I may use John 5:17 it would only be in a limited way to show that the audience of Jesus counted that the claim of being the Son of God was a claim to Deity which they considered blasphemy. I could find plenty of other more direct passages to uphold THAT SIDE of the truth of the MINGLING of God and man.
We are in agreement, I believe, on one point. Tritheism is an error. That is a concept of three Gods.
I will try to learn more about your brand of Unitarianism by looking at that website.
I would like to recommend a little book to you which has been of great help to many in studying the Bible:
"The Two-foldedness of Divine Truth" by Robert Govett
Robert Govett was a tremendously careful and balanced interpreter of the Bible. And he helped people, through this article, in seeing the dangers of extreme one-sided positions and arguing one side of the Bible against another side of the Bible.
He advocates, and I fully agree, that there are some paradoxes which are hard to reconcile logically, in the word of God. And he advocates that Faith should affirm all of the statements of the Bible without favoring one side against the other.
I hope you can find that booklet somewhere, maybe on the Internet. It is published by:
Schoettle Publishing Co. Inc. P.O. Box 1246, Hayesville, NC 28904
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Originally posted by jaywillI will make an attempt to locate the booklet. But please try to understand that I have held this position for many years. I believe it is the truth. Jesus, in my estimation is created like Adam. Where the first Adam failed, the second Adam succeeded. That is why the bible uses this terminology...
Thank you for taking the time to examine that website.
I may be unable to fellowship with you for a few days.
I think we Christians must be careful not to fall into one or the other extreme view. If we do not uphold that the man Jesus is truly a created man (for Man is an item of God's creation - [b](Gen. 1:26,28) we err on one side. But if we published by:
Schoettle Publishing Co. Inc. P.O. Box 1246, Hayesville, NC 28904[/b]
1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(NKJ)
This was God's will, His plan, not mine. I can more easily identify with Christ the Man as should all Christians. I can identify with His suffering, His anguish in the garden, His faith and trust in God, His joy with the Father. He studied the Old Testament diligently and learned of the prophecies about Himself. I wonder what He felt like after the realization of who He was destined to become. The concept of the Trinity robs me of this identification. That is why I see Jesus much more as my hero and the captain of my salvation, and rightfully so. God was very pleased to exalt His Son to the position He has. I have devoted my life to Jesus Christ. Is this blasphemy? No, it is God's commandment. I believe God raised Him from the dead and has made Him Lord.
Acts 2:36
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
(NKJ)
Rom 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(NKJ)
Acts 7:37
37 "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.'
(NKJ)
God, would hardly qualify as one of our brethren. I can go on all day, but you can get all this from the site I mentioned.