Originally posted by menace71If one is "trying" to make the trinity explainable, then examples like this you just gave makes it easier I guess for you to accept the trinity. But this example you give has nothing to do with the other.
Explain the duality of the wave/particle ? The very nature of light it's a paradox and yet both are true how? God could be this way in nature but some people if they can't understand something or even apprehend it then it can't be true ?
Manny
Again all of these scriptures I quoted, which is only a small amount, shows exactly Jesus's position with God and that he is a subordinate to his Father as Jesus himself stated cleary many times.
Found this wonderful and crystal clear explination of the trinity......... OMG, what a bunch of mumbo jumbo as one half of what he says contradicts the other!!!
"Yep their all equal but yet there not" Serioulsy??????
Question
I recently enquired of a pastor about church membership. He gave me a list of doctrinal statements which I had no problem with, except that I questioned him about one which had to do with Jesus being equal to God the Father in terms of knowledge, power and authority. I have gleaned from my study of the Bible that Jesus does not know everything that the Father knows (e.g. Jesus does not know the time of the end of the age [Matt. 24-26]). Further, by Jesus' own admission, he does not have the authority to make appointments to office in the kingdom of heaven (Mark 10:40). Also, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 explains that while Jesus is given all authority in heaven and earth with respect to the everlasting kingdom, this is not inclusive of power over God the Father, to whom Jesus is still subject. It seems perfectly clear from the Bible that while Jesus and God the Father may well be equal in terms of their divinity because they are both members of the divine family, there is no suggestion that they are equal in all other respects.
Answer
Let's start with an affirmation of the doctrine of the ontological Trinity, which states that God exists in three persons and one essence. This is a careful way of conveying the following truths: 1) there is only one God; 2) the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God; and 3) the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different persons. With the possible exception of a couple technical attributes generally ascribed only to one or another person of the Godhead, and which are aspects of the way God exists in three persons, all those attributes native to God's being are shared equally by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In his divine nature, Jesus the Son of God is fully God (John 1:1; Tit. 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:1), possessing all the attributes native to God in his essence, that is, all the attributes that God possesses just because he exists as God. Omniscience and omnipotence are of this category, so that Jesus possesses both, making him equal to the persons of the Father and of the Holy Spirit in knowledge and power.
However, Jesus also has a human nature. Because omniscience and omnipotence are infinite by definition, and because man is finite, man cannot possess these attributes. Thus, in his human nature, Jesus the Man cannot be equal to any of the persons of the Godhead in knowledge or in power. Generally, the Bible speaks of Jesus from the perspective of his human nature, as in the passages you stated. Granted, the distinction between what Jesus knows in his human nature and what he knows in his divine nature is a difficult one to fathom. It is one of the mysteries of the hypostatic union (the union of a divine nature and a human nature in the one person Jesus Christ) that is beyond our experience and normal patterns of thinking.
The question of authority is more complicated. It involves issues related to the hypostatic union, the economic Trinity, and the ontological Trinity. The economic Trinity describes the way in which the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit interact with and relate to one another, as opposed to the ontological Trinity which describes the way they exist. Authority is often described in terms of right and power. Inasmuch as Jesus is divine, he possesses equal power to the Father and the Holy Spirit. His divine right over creation is absolute as well. Moreover, his authority even in his human nature is now absolute over creation. This, I believe, is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15:28 -- the context specifically refers to Jesus' human nature (1 Cor. 15:21). I believe this is also the perspective expressed in Mark 10:40. It is safe to conclude that all members of the Godhead hold equal authority over creation.
But is there an inter-Trinitarian authority heirarchy? Yes. In the economic Trinity, the Son willingly submits to the Father's authority, and the Holy Spirit submits to both the Father and the Son. Most people would understand this to demonstrate that the Father's economic inter-Trinitarian authority is greater than the Son's and the Holy Spirit's, and that the Son's is greater than the Holy Spirit's. I suppose there might be some who argue that all persons of the Trinity are ontologically equal in authority, while being economically unequal, but I am unfamiliar with anyone who actually makes this case. Equality of authority is not something generally asserted in statements of faith, creeds or confessions.
Answer by Ra McLaughlin
Ra McLaughlin is Vice President of Creative Delivery Systems at Third Millennium Ministries.
I'm trying to look at the subject from a pure analytical standpoint. We would not even be having this argument if one side did not see a triune nature revealed in the bible right? I'm not defending the trinity at this time but merely showing that a truth can have an opposite or paradoxical quality to it and I used the example of Light as light shows the quality of being a wave and at other times a particle. Which is paradoxal So just because a concept any concept can't be readily explained does not in and of itself nullify the idea.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71I respect your views Manny, I really do, no no issues there. But if one were to be strickly analytical and pull back from doctrines and go stricly on what the Bible says, the trinity does not exist in it and in fact all the Bible disagrees with it.
I'm trying to look at the subject from a pure analytical standpoint. We would not even be having this argument if one side did not see a triune nature revealed in the bible right? I'm not defending the trinity at this time but merely showing that a truth can have an opposite or paradoxical quality to it and I used the example of Light as light shows the qua ...[text shortened]... cept any concept can't be readily explained does not in and of itself nullify the idea.
Manny
None of God's people before Jesus and after, never taught it and never mentioned it al all. Not even once and even the Jews down to this day do not believe in it.
And along with that, the history of the trinity has very shady origins as any historian can show and can be found easly on the internet for all to see.
If it were a true doctrine and if one does not believe in and it could mean their eternal damnation, then it should be as clear as a bell in the Bible that one better believe it or else. That is never said.
The early church founders wanted to control their flocks with fear and this was a perfect tool to do that with. "We can't explain it but that's your problem as you just better believe it and do as we say."
That's one of the many reasons the general population for centuries were not alllowed to have a bible.
And history shows that it wasn't until the 4th century that it was even accepted iinto the church. Why is that? Because Jesus never taught it and in fact taught just the oppisite, the apostles never taught it and it's simply not in the Bible to be taught.
Too many strikes against it, too many voids in a clear explination of it and the "continuity of the bible" condmens it.
Originally posted by galveston75Just because a particular word does not appear in the Holy Bible does not mean the idea that that word is meant to give to the reader is not there.
I respect your views Manny, I really do, no no issues there. But if one were to be strickly analytical and pull back from doctrines and go stricly on what the Bible says, the trinity does not exist in it and in fact all the Bible disagrees with it.
None of God's people before Jesus and after, never taught it and never mentioned it al all. Not even once ...[text shortened]... t it, too many voids in a clear explination of it and the "continuity of the bible" condmens it.
The Christian Doctrine of the Trinity was the best the ancient Christians could come up with to tie all the meanings about God together and fight heretical views like your Arianism adopted by the watchtower Society at the same time.
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Originally posted by galveston75What I find "strange" is how you JWs can strain at this "gnat" and yet swallow the "camel" that says Jesus is mighty god and yet also an angel.
Scriptures to consider:
Matt. 20:20-23, RS: “The mother of the sons of Zebedee . . . said to him [Jesus], ‘Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.’ But Jesus answered, . . . ‘You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for ...[text shortened]... the Son is not equal to the Father, that the Father has reserved some prerogatives for himself?)
Originally posted by galveston75Why shouldn't a Son be subordinate to His Father until He has proven Himself worthy?
If one is "trying" to make the trinity explainable, then examples like this you just gave makes it easier I guess for you to accept the trinity. But this example you give has nothing to do with the other.
Again all of these scriptures I quoted, which is only a small amount, shows exactly Jesus's position with God and that he is a subordinate to his Father as Jesus himself stated cleary many times.
Originally posted by RJHindsAgain you play with words to fit what you want. The so called trinity says they are all equal. But you can't make that work with the scriptures from the bible so here we go again with, "why not, what if, it could, couldn't it?
Why shouldn't a Son be subordinate to His Father until He has proven Himself worthy?
The TRUTH is the TRUTH which you can't seem to grasp.
Originally posted by galveston75Let's see if you can grasp the following passage from the Messiah that reveals the Trinity in the Old Testament book of Isaiah.
Again you play with words to fit what you want. The so called trinity says they are all equal. But you can't make that work with the scriptures from the bible so here we go again with, "why not, what if, it could, couldn't it?
The TRUTH is the TRUTH which you can't seem to grasp.
“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
“All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
(Isaiah 48:12-16 NKJV)
See this last verse where the Trinity is revealed:
"And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
There you see the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Christ is one verse in the Old Testament.