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KellyJay,
We should give careful heed to both aspects of the truth.
Do you deny that the Word BECAME flesh ? (John 1:14)
Do you deny that the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit? (1 Cor. 15:45) .
Whatever it is you are trying to affirm about God do not negate these two great truths of the word of God.
@sonship saidOne of the things that people have issues with in the OT is God speaking and
Call it a monologue if you wish.
This thread will contain reasons for Christians believing in the eternal Son of God.
It is admitted up front that the two words together "eternal Son" may not be found in the Bible. I will give evidence for the FACT of the eternal Son being biblical.
You all can decide for yourselves.
using the words, "let us" example when God created man. We are made in the
image of God, not in the image of angels so God was simply speaking Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit the "US" that was revealed in the New Testament. When Jesus
was about to leave what was one of the charges He left with us? It was to
baptize in the name, not in names, but the singular name for the Three in One,
One God!
If anyone watched those videos I posted in the other thread they would have
seen far more confirming the three are One, in ways that make sense and are
a joy for us. The Father who is above us, the Son who is beside us, and the Spirit
within us. If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father, and if you do
not have God's Spirit you do not belong to God.
Matthew 16:14-16 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Matthew 28:18-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
@sonship saidNot at all, believe me! There are two failures concerning Jesus, one is to deny His
KellyJay,
We should give careful heed to both aspects of the truth.
Do you deny that the Word BECAME flesh ? (John 1:14)
Do you deny that the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit? (1 Cor. 15:45) .
Whatever it is you are trying to affirm about God do not negate these two great truths of the word of God.
Deity, the other is to deny His humanity. People who do not accept God deny His
deity, people who can accept God but have issues with who He was deny His
humanity. He is both God and man, and when He was here living as a man He did
everything as a man, He did not turn on His Godhood to do somethings then
turn it off to do others. He humbled Himself to be one of us and as one of us He
defeated the devil, and conquered death, He overcame as a man. Now He is our
template, who we should be attempting to emulate as a man, we cannot act as
God, but when He became a man He showed us how to live. God gives us His
Spirit so that we can do this, without God's Spirit we are just people striving to do
something that cannot be done, please God in the flesh without God's Spirit.
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One of the things that people have issues with in the OT is God speaking and
using the words, "let us" example when God created man. We are made in the
image of God, not in the image of angels so God was simply speaking Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit the "US" that was revealed in the New Testament. When Jesus
was about to leave what was one of the charges He left with us? It was to
baptize in the name, not in names, but the singular name for the Three in One,
One God!
I also believe that was the Trinity speaking as in a few other places in the Old Testament.
If anyone watched those videos I posted in the other thread they would have seen far more confirming the three are One, in ways that make sense and are a joy for us. The Father who is above us, the Son who is beside us, and the Spirit within us. If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father, and if you do not have God's Spirit you do not belong to God.
The Bible says that the Lord Jesus IS the Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17).
So the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
What I did not like about the video was just the attempt to draw a graphic. The graphic communicated something not taught in the Bible.
The symbolism had the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
These are not altogether true because the plain words of the Bible include that the Son is called "Eternal Father" and the Lord is the Spirit.
So in our affirming the truth of the Bible we should not neglect that these are said also. If it is a problem to some creed formula that will just be too bad. The plain statements of God's word must have priority.
So much of the video I liked. But Isaiah 9:6 says the Son given is to be called Eternal Father. And Second Corinthians 3:17 says the Lord Christ Jesus is the Spirit.
Matthew 16:14-16 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Wonderful. We should believe that. And we should also beleive Isaiah 9:6 and Second Corinthians 3:17.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Matthew 28:18-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
@sonship saidIf you are attempting to suggest that Jesus couldn't remain who He is by taking
KellyJay,
We should give careful heed to both aspects of the truth.
Do you deny that the Word BECAME flesh ? (John 1:14)
Do you deny that the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit? (1 Cor. 15:45) .
Whatever it is you are trying to affirm about God do not negate these two great truths of the word of God.
on additional titles you would be wrong.
I can be a man, marry becoming a husband, then father, I still remain who I am. Becoming something new isn't by necessity changing who you are.
I don't deny the Word became flesh I rejoice in it.
I don't negate either of those two things by what I have said either.
I do not deny that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit. He did this by coming
here as one of us, becoming the last Adam from His position from Heaven.
1 Corinthians 15: 45-49
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
@sonship saidJesus is not the Holy Spirit.
@KellyJay
One of the things that people have issues with in the OT is God speaking and
using the words, "let us" example when God created man. We are made in the
image of God, not in the image of angels so God was simply speaking Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit the "US" that was revealed in the New Testament. When Jesus
was about to leave what was one of the c ...[text shortened]... ve all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Jesus is also not the Father.
They are however One God.
Jesus didn't lead Himself in the desert, Jesus didn't talk to Himself saying this is my
Son who I am well pleased. Jesus didn't pray to Himself as He was a man either,
Jesus said He was here to do the Father's will not His own. The Father sent the Son,
Jesus didn't send Himself, the Father and Son sent the Holy Spirit.
John 20:20-22 English Standard Version (ESV)
20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
He didn't say receive me when I breath on you, but the Spirit of God.
@divegeester saidProvide scriptural support for interpreting 1 John 5:7 as meaning "three offices".
Offices, three offices. Your claim that there are three people in the godhead is heresy.
The verse says "there are three that bear record", "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost".
Three distinct identities, supported throughout scripture, but especially in the New Testament.
In John's gospel we read, "In the beginning(Eternity past)was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God."
Clearly the Word is God. So how can the Word be both God and "with God" at the same time if a distinction isn't inferred by the grammar?
Why is God referred to as Father in scripture, and Jesus referred to as God in numerous places, if they are the same person?
Because they are, yet they are distinct in character and personality as two separate individuals.
Then there is the Holy Ghost. Clearly referred to as a distinct entity, yet is God, just as are the Father and Son.
They are one God. The only God in existence.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
It reads in the Hebrew: Jehovah our elohiym echad Jehovah.
God our God(plural)one God.
The word elohiym occurs 2,606 times in 2,249 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV. In all but four verses in Genesis chapter 1.
Genesis 1:26
And God(elohiym)said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Some interpret "let us" to mean God is speaking to the angels, but nowhere in scripture do we find God creating angels in His image. So that interpretation doesn't fit.
Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Three Devine personalities. One God.
Fully revealed and developed in the New Testament.
@sonship saidGod is a Spirit and those that worship Him must do so in Spirit and truth. This
@KellyJay
One of the things that people have issues with in the OT is God speaking and
using the words, "let us" example when God created man. We are made in the
image of God, not in the image of angels so God was simply speaking Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit the "US" that was revealed in the New Testament. When Jesus
was about to leave what was one of the c ...[text shortened]... ve all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
does not mean that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not One in one
sense that they are God, and different because they are their own person either.
John 4:22-24 English Standard Version (ESV)
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
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divegeester’s rebuttal.
1) As sonship quite righty states in his OP, the “eternal son” is not not mentioned in the bible, not even once. Can’t be that important can it.
2) sonship provided scriptures with he believes supports his understanding of someone else’s interpretation of other scriptures which they believed explained an element of the godhead. The notes he makes in his lots of long posts are not evidence of a “FACT” of the reality of something not even mentioned in the bible as he claims.
3) the concept of an “eternal son” and an eternal father” is flawed even in the most basic of reasoning and also in scripture.
- Firstly in logic, how can a son be equally eternal with his father when clearly a father comes before a son?
- Secondly there is is this important scripture in psalms:
“I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father.
If the son was begotten of his father and it happened on a day call “today”, then how can that relationship as father and son be eternal?
There is one God who is eternal and he is revealed in several manifestations including as a human being who was conceived in a womb, was born as a baby, grew up as a green shoot of David, died, rose and is glorified. But he is the same God himself who is eternal, it is the “son”ship element that is not eternal.
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@sonship saidwhat a crock
@SecondSon
Thankyou for the words of encouragement and appreciation.
Our Savior God is truly Wonderful and awesome.
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Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
The word of God says -
Now the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17)
Who is "the Lord" there?
He is Christ Jesus!
"For we so not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord." (2 Cor. 4:5a)
Don't tell half of the story and think you have it right.
" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
That is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of life. The Spirit that gives life.
Christ became the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is also not the Father.
But the word of God says -
"For a child is born to us, A Son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIghty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace ... " (Isiah 9:6)
Tell the whole truth without protest, without shame.
The Son is the Father.
If He is called the Father but is not the Father, then by the same token He is called the Prince of Peace but is not the Prince of Peace.
Tell the whole truth.
They are however One God.
Amen. That is right. But the Lord is the Spirit. And the Son is the Father.
We do not have to logically reconcile the mystery. We are called to believe the word of God.
" whosoever believeth " is not "whosoever can explaineth".
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There is one God who is eternal and he is revealed in several manifestations including as a human being who was conceived in a womb, was born as a baby, grew up as a green shoot of David, died, rose and is glorified. But he is the same God himself who is eternal, it is the “son”ship element that is not eternal.
KellyJay is telling only half of the truth from one side.
And you are telling only half the truth from the opposite side.
Both of you are not able to speak the whole truth.
Both of you are speaking from preference and partiality.
Paul told Timothy to speak nothing out of partiality but to be faithful to the whole truth no matter what.
" I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." ( 1 Timothy 5:21)
Both you and KellyJay are from opposite angles speaking by way of partiality.
I thank God for the local churches, to come home to the full impartial truth.
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Explicitly the word of God tells us of the "eternal Father" in Isaiah 9:6
Explicitly the word of God also tells us of "the eternal Spirit" in Hebrews 9:11.
God tells us that the Son given is called "eternal Father" (Isaiah 9:6) .
We should say "Amen".
God tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).
We should believe and say "Amen."
So how can the Son of God not be eternal ?
To KellyJay I would ask -
Kelly if you believe that the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1) then why can you not believe that the given Son was sent by the eternal Father and is the eternal Father?
To the rude Divegeester, I would no longer say anything.
But to those influenced by his partiality I would ask -
Which one of the "We" in John 14:23 is not God ?
Which one of the "Us" in John 17:21 is not God?
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@sonship saidI’ve posted my rubuttal twice now, page 1 and this page.
@divegeester
There is one God who is eternal and he is revealed in several manifestations including as a human being who was conceived in a womb, was born as a baby, grew up as a green shoot of David, died, rose and is glorified. But he is the same God himself who is eternal, it is the “son”ship element that is not eternal.
KellyJay is telling only ha ...[text shortened]... ay of partiality.
I thank God for the local churches, to come home to the full impartial truth.
Read it and learn; you’re very welcome.
Happy Christmas.
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Since we are told that the Father of the Trinity is eternal - (Isaiah 9:6) and that the Spirit of the Trinity is eternal (Hebrews 9:11). two of the three ??????s are are eternal.
I put ????? to indicate the limitation of human language to express this.
I could borrow the word "persons" to convey the thought. Let's do that.
Since we are told that the Father of the Trinity is eternal - (Isaiah 9:6) and that the Spirit of the Trinity is eternal (Hebrews 9:11). two of the three "persons" are are eternal.
1.) I have not yet seen a reason WHY the One coming from days of eternity to be Ruler in Israel in Micah 5:2 would not be eternal.
2.) I have not yet seen a reason WHY the Word who was with God and WAS God in John 1:1) is not eternal.
3.) I have not yet seen a reason WHY the Son Who is to be called "eternal Father" in Isaish 9:6 is not eternal.
4.) I have not yet seen a reason WHY the Son, the Lord Who is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) when the Spirit is "the eternal Spirit" would not be eternal, at least from the time of His becoming the life giving Spirit "(1 Cor. 15:45) on into the eternal future.
5.) I have not yet seen a reason WHY the "Son of Man" Who says He is the First and the Last in Revelation 1:8 EVEN AS JEHOVAH GOD says He is the FIrst and the Last in Isaiah 44:6; and 48:12 is not eternal.
6.) I have not yet seen WHY the Son of God Who said before Abraham was "I AM" in John 8:58 is not eternal.