1. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 00:024 edits
    Paul writes to the Christians in Rome, who were enjoying Christ as the indwelling Lord and Savior:

    "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your moral bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

    The One indwelling the disciples is the "the Spirit of God" (v.9)
    But the title "the Spirit of God" is used interchangeably with the title "the Spirit of Christ" (v.9)

    So the Spirit of God is the same Person as the Spirit of Christ.

    Then we are told that the "Christ is in you". So the Spirit of Christ is Christ. If the Spirit of Christ indwells the Christians then Christ indwells the Christians.

    The Spirit of God = The Spirit of Christ = Christ. He dwells in the believers for their subjective experience and enjoyment. He owns these three titles interchangeably and the believers can detect NO separation.

    Are we clear? The Spirit of God is Christ. Christ is the Spirit of Christ. Christ is the Spirit of God.

    Now we see that the One who indwells the disciples is also "the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead" (v.11) -

    "And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ..." (v.11)

    The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. And the Spirit of Christ is Christ Himself. And Christ Himself is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. Four do not indwell the believers. Only ONE mysterious divine Person indwells the believers. And these four titles this mystersious one owns simultaneously with no possibility that the believers can detect ANY separation between them:

    The Spirit of God indwells them. But this indwelling One is the Spirit of Christ too. And The Spirit of Christ in them is Christ who indwells them. And Christ who indwells them is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

    We have in this passage - the Father "He who raised Jesus from the dead" as the indwelling Life. Here we also have Christ as the indwelling Life. Christ is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead ?

    I said, CHRIST ... is the the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. He indwells the believers in Christ.

    "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (v.11)

    This passage is not that much on doctrine. Like many other passages on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is on subjective experience. And the experiencers cannot detect or discern any separation between:

    The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead.

    What they do know is that divine LIFE is being given to them. This LIFE is a Person - the Triune God. Christ is this life whom the Father uses to give life to our mortal bodies. And Christ as the Last Adam, became a life giving Spirit:

    "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .

    Compare - "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also GIVE LIFE to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:11)

    The goal of the Trinity is to give divine life.
    The goal of the Trinity is to give God to man that man may live in God.
    The goal of the Trinity is not that man may have a confusing theological doctrine. It is for experience - the experience of living in God, living God, living in oneness with God, living in union with God and having God live in and through man.
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    09 Jul '11 03:53
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Paul writes to the Christians in Rome, who were enjoying Christ as the indwelling Lord and Savior:

    [b]"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of ri ...[text shortened]... with God, living in union with God and having God live in and through man.
    Don't forget that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.
  3. Standard memberSoothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
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    09 Jul '11 05:35
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Don't forget that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.
    Amen, brother. Pass the Kool-Aid.
  4. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 08:331 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Paul writes to the Christians in Rome, who were enjoying Christ as the indwelling Lord and Savior:

    [b]"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of ri with God, living in union with God and having God live in and through man.
    [/b]
    That's a lot of words to say you believe in 3 Gods.

    There is one God.
  5. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 11:29
    Originally posted by divegeester
    That's a lot of words to say you believe in 3 Gods.

    There is one God.
    ==========================
    That's a lot of words to say you believe in 3 Gods.

    There is one God.
    ==========================


    Which words did I write says I believe in three Gods ?

    Be precise. No vague innuendos.
  6. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 11:412 edits
    Romans 8:9-11 is a very expereincial passage on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The recipients are occupied with the enjoyment of the One who dwells in them. And they nor the Christians of today can detect no separation between the God who raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of Christ / the Spirit of God.

    There are other passages like it.

    "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, Of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, The He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:14-17)

    Look at the three matter which are going on togther, simultaneously. Paul petitions the Father of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit of the Trinity is strengthening the saints into a realm called "the inner man". The Spirit is strengthening them into that sphere with power. And the issue is that the Son of the Trinity, Christ, would make His home in their heart.

    The heart in the Bible is the mind, emotion, will, plus the conscience. These four components of man's inner being constitute the heart. And the Trinity is for Christ to settle down, make His home, make His dwelling place and abode in the psychological heart. This occurs via the granting of the Father and the strengthening of the Holy Spirit.

    Here is the experiencial basis of the Trinity. Those not in the expereince apply their unenlightened mind's dark thoughts to try to figure out what "pagan" belief could have possibly informed Paul's words here.

    Usually the ones raking their brains to designate some "pagan" origin to the NT revelation of the Triune God, are the ones with little or no enjoyment or experience of God's indwelling.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    09 Jul '11 13:18
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==========================
    That's a lot of words to say you believe in 3 Gods.

    There is one God.
    ==========================


    Which words did I write says I believe in three Gods ?

    Be precise. No vague innuendos.[/b]
    The problem is, your religion is one big vague innuendo.
  8. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 13:261 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The problem is, your religion is one big vague innuendo.
    The problem you have is that your human spirit is comatose and in need of regeneration. The organ within you which is designed to contact and touch God is deadened and needs to be made alive.

    The world is three dimensional and you are only aware of two dimensions.
    The world is in color but you only see black and white.

    Your function of substantiating spiritual reality is impaired, comatose, and deadened.

    It has nothing to do with how clever or smart you are. You are dead in your offenses and sins. You need to be regenerated by receiving Christ the life giving Spirit so that the spiritual realm become real to you.

    Your various and fleeting idols are not doing this for you.
  9. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 13:35
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Paul writes to the Christians in Rome, who were enjoying Christ as the indwelling Lord and Savior:

    [b]"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of ri ...[text shortened]... with God, living in union with God and having God live in and through man.
    Unbelievable. No wonder no one can explain this trinity thing. I mean no disrespect but that's about the craziest buch of mumbo jumbo I've ever tried to read. And I mean "tried" as it makes no sense at all.
    All I see here is a total misunderstanding of these scriptures and some very vague attempts to play with words and try to make it believeable somehow and it just doesn't work.
    It can't be explained in plain everyday understandable english so ones resort to it being explained like this?
    No wonder they call it a mystery!!!!!
  10. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 14:293 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Unbelievable. No wonder no one can explain this trinity thing. I mean no disrespect but that's about the craziest buch of mumbo jumbo I've ever tried to read. And I mean "tried" as it makes no sense at all.
    All I see here is a total misunderstanding of these scriptures and some very vague attempts to play with words and try to make it believeable some h so ones resort to it being explained like this?
    No wonder they call it a mystery!!!!!
    ==================================
    Unbelievable. No wonder no one can explain this trinity thing.
    =====================================


    There is no requirement place upon the disciples that they HAVE to be able to explain God's mysterious nature.

    Can you point to an 11th commandment "Thou shalt surely be able to explain God" ?

    What is required is that the believers experience God subjectively, allowing Him to come into our being to impart life to us.

    ===================================
    I mean no disrespect but that's about the craziest buch of mumbo jumbo I've ever tried to read.
    ===================================


    You speal a lot about the kingdom of God. But you neglect that Christ taught that unless we turn and become as little children we would not enter into the kingdom of the heavens:

    "And He called a little child to Him and stood him in their midst. And said, truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no means enter into the kingdmo of the heavens." (Matt. 18:3)

    The characteristic of a little child is trust. When the Bible tells me to receive Jesus Christ I trust my Father that I can and should do that.

    Your protesting that my quotations from Paul's letter and explanation is mumbo jumno could simply be your refusal to turn to trust God's word as a little child.

    You will not enter into the kingdom unless you turn and become as a little trusting child. And your reaction of calling the revelation "mumbo jumbo" could be the reaction of one whose mind has been blinded by Satan:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing, In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:3,4)

    For the gospel to be veiled is the same as the gospel being "mumbo jumbo" to the Satanic blinded mind. You could be in the process of perishing.

    If I were you I would pray "Lord Jesus, my mind is blinded. Lord Jesus, my thoughts are blinded by the Devil. Have mercy upon me Lord. Help my unbelief."

    ==========================
    And I mean "tried" as it makes no sense at all.
    =========================


    It is mysterious. But it makes sense. And not only can those who are perishing have their minds blinded, but the carnal minded consider the Gospel to be foolishness:

    "But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually." (1 Cor. 2:15)

    If I were you I would pray something like this "Lord Jesus, Your gospel appears as foolishness to me. Have mercy upon Me Lord. I can only see the Gospel as foolish. Reach me Lord. Father, reach me with Your far reaching mercy. Reach down to me in this condition. I cannot help myself Father. Help my unbelief Lord."

    =============================
    All I see here is a total misunderstanding of these scriptures and some very vague attempts to play with words and try to make it believeable somehow and it just doesn't work.
    ==========================


    It is plain as day that Paul is using various titles in an interchangeable way.

    The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. All are said to be dwelling IN the believers.

    If you have not received the Holy Spirit you don't know what he is talking about, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE.

    The brothers who came up with the word "Trinity" had experience. They listened to the teachings of Arius and knew that it did not correspond to their experience. They were right to reject proto Watchtower Christology of that century.

    Read my keyboard - YOU cannot educate me about the Triune God, PERIOD. As long as you have no experience, you cannot "help" me on the matter of the Trinity.

    A BLIND MAN cannot assist one seeing on the nature of the color GREEN. And you cannot "help" me to understand where the teaching of the Trinity came from.

    But if you do get some experience, I think I will know it. And some others here will probably detect a change too.

    =========================================
    It can't be explained in plain everyday understandable english so ones resort to it being explained like this?
    ====================================


    For the most part I QUOTED the New Testament. Your real contempt is toward the New Testament.

    ======================
    No wonder they call it a mystery!!!!!
    ========================


    The Bible says Christ is the mystery of God. Before "they" said it, the word of God said it. Find the passage yourself in Colossians. Christ - the mystery of God.
  11. Account suspended
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    09 Jul '11 14:34
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Unbelievable. No wonder no one can explain this trinity thing. I mean no disrespect but that's about the craziest buch of mumbo jumbo I've ever tried to read. And I mean "tried" as it makes no sense at all.
    All I see here is a total misunderstanding of these scriptures and some very vague attempts to play with words and try to make it believeable some ...[text shortened]... h so ones resort to it being explained like this?
    No wonder they call it a mystery!!!!!
    Perhaps Shaggy, Scooby doo and mystery incorporated can solve it?
  12. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 14:372 edits
    removed
  13. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 14:41
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Perhaps Shaggy, Scooby doo and mystery incorporated can solve it?
    In the last days will come "mockers". You're right on time.
  14. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 14:54
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==================================
    Unbelievable. No wonder no one can explain this trinity thing.
    =====================================


    There is no requirement place upon the disciples that they HAVE to be able to explain God's mysterious nature.

    Can you point to an 11th commandment "Thou shalt surely be able to explain God" ? [/ ...[text shortened]... e passage yourself in Colossians. Christ - the mystery of God.
    "What is required is that the believers experience God subjectively, allowing Him to come into our being to impart life to us. "

    I'm not engaged in any Trinity discussions but wonder about the above quote from your post, in terms of experiencing God, which is a subject that interests me.

    Is your belief concerning the Trinity due to a direct subjective experience you have had of God? If so, what happened, specifically?

    On the other hand, if you are not referring to your own experience, I would assume you are referring to the direct experience of those who a the gospels report as hearing Jesus refer to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Is that correct?
  15. Joined
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    09 Jul '11 15:16
    Originally posted by JS357
    "What is required is that the believers experience God subjectively, allowing Him to come into our being to impart life to us. "

    I'm not engaged in any Trinity discussions but wonder about the above quote from your post, in terms of experiencing God, which is a subject that interests me.

    Is your belief concerning the Trinity due to a direct subjective ex ...[text shortened]... the gospels report as hearing Jesus refer to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Is that correct?
    =================================
    I'm not engaged in any Trinity discussions but wonder about the above quote from your post, in terms of experiencing God, which is a subject that interests me.

    Is your belief concerning the Trinity due to a direct subjective experience you have had of God? If so, what happened, specifically?
    =====================================


    When Christ came into my life the New Testament began to make sense in many places.

    I began to realize that others had walked this path before me. The utterances of Paul, John, Peter, let alone those of Jesus began to make sense. I could say "I know something about what that is talking about. I have experienced that."

    When I first called on the name of the Jesus to receive Him, for a season I was too proud to read the Bible. Eventually the Holy Spirit led me to start to read through "Good News For Modern Man" a popular English friendly paraphrase of the New Testament during the late 60s.

    After that I started to read the Revised Standard Version. I think around this time the pages began to "lighten up" to me. Here a portion. There a portion. Here and there, a little light and a little more light. I could honestly say "I think I understand that part. I have experienced that."


    So when I read Romans 8:9-11 about the Spirit of God dwells in me, the Spirit of Christ dwells in me, and Christ Himself dwells in me, I can respond "This is familiar to be brother Paul. I think I know what you are saying. I have experienced this what you are discribing."

    So I have the word of God and I have my corresponding experience. And we have many biographies and corresponding testimonies of fellow Christians. We are in fellowship in this experience.

    Interestingly, when we move away from experience and enjoyment we often fall pray to disputes over doctrinal matters of all kinds.

    So the Apostle Paul warned the Christians to Hold fast the Head. That is the living Person of the available and experiencial Christ. Hold HIM fast, tightly - do not be easily moved away from enjoying Jesus Christ as a indwelling Person.

    ===========================================
    On the other hand, if you are not referring to your own experience, I would assume you are referring to the direct experience of those who a the gospels report as hearing Jesus refer to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Is that correct?
    ================================================


    I am refering to both the word of God and our experience. We have the oracles of God and we have our experience. Both are important.
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