1. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 03:10
    Originally posted by divegeester
    If you struggle so much with the language why adhere to an historically pagan construct to explain our God?

    God is one.

    There is one God.

    This God is revealed in many ways and through many names

    The current name given by God amoungst men is Jesus Christ, which as we all know means God saves.

    Why complicate and compromise the truth with p ...[text shortened]... uestions about co-equality within a triune Godhead and the eternal Sonship?

    Regards my friend
    ================================
    Why complicate and compromise the truth with pagan ideology?
    =================================


    I have no idea what you are talking about.
  2. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 03:23
    Originally posted by divegeester
    OK. You believe in 1 God who is one person? Obviously not, you believe in three persons, so it's a bit of a cop-out to say you believe in 1 God.

    Do you believe the Son is eternal?

    Do you believe the 3 components of the trinity are co-equal?
    ============================
    Do you believe the Son is eternal?
    ==============================


    Yes. If the Word was God (John 1:1) then the Son is eternal.

    =============================
    Do you believe the 3 components of the trinity are co-equal?
    =========================


    Co-equal and co-inherant. Each lives in the other.
  3. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 03:25
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is a post I directed to robbie carobie, maybe you should
    have read it too because I used quotes from your own NWT. Notice
    Acts 5:3-4. I Know you probablly still have your JW blinders on.

    Jesus said, "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather
    with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be ...[text shortened]... s this not say the Holy Spirit is God for how can one play false with an
    "active force"?
    Matthew 12:30-32, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Acts 5:3-4, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Want to try again?
  4. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 03:33
    The Experiencial Basis of the Trinity. Back to experience.

    Here again Paul speaks in a matter of a fact way about the three of the Trinity in the context of the experience of the audience:

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)

    This is a call for the Christians to recognize what they are enjoying. It is affirmation. It is declaration of the enjoyed fact.

    Christ is with them as grace, empowering them, enabling them. This empowering and enabling of the believers to live is an expression of the love of God to them. They experience this empowering grace and the love of the Father as its source through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

    They are in fellowship with the Third of the Triune God being empowered by the grace of the Second of the Triune God as an experience of the love of the First of the Triune God.

    Very experiencial - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. "
  5. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 03:482 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Matthew 12:30-32, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Acts 5:3-4, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Want to try again?
    ===================================
    2 Corinthians 3:17-18, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.
    =======================================


    Another excellent experiencial passage. The Lord is the Spirit.

    "And the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

    Who is "the Lord" there ? It is the Lord Christ Jesus:

    "For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)

    "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 1:2)

    The Lord Christ Jesus is the Spirit. Christ is the Holy Spirit.
    Who is the Holy Spirit ? He is the Spirit that gives divine life to the saints:

    " ... for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" ( 2 Cor. 3:6)

    Of course since "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" ( 1 Cor. 15:45) it is only confirming that the Lord Jesus is the Spirit and the Spirit gives life in Second Corinthians.

    Both sides of the mysterious truth are covered in 2 Cor. 3:17,18. The Lord is the Spirit and the Spirit is "of the Lord."

    "And the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom."

    The two are one. And the one is two also. This passage is also on the experience of the Corinthian Christians and all Christians who have Christ within.

    This passage also confirms Romans 8:9-11 spoken to before. The Spirit of Christ is Christ. The Spirit of God indwells them. And the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in them. The same mysterious divine Triune God indwells them.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Jul '11 04:30
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Matthew 12:30-32, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Acts 5:3-4, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Want to try again?
    Is there too many words between "the Holy Spirit" and "God" for you
    to see that the one being "Lied to "or "playing falsely to" is the same
    one? Please use your head for something other than a hat rack.
  7. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 12:344 edits
    The Experiencial Basis of the Trinity:

    The Son with the Father both come to indwell the believer as the wonderful Divine "WE".

    "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

    Who is the "We" in this passage? The word "We" refers to Jesus Christ the speaker - "Jesus answered and said to him ...", and also to the Father - "My Father will love him"

    The Son and the Father as the wonderful, divine, and quite mysterious "WE" will come to the lover of Jesus and make an abode with him.

    Back again to Romans 8:9-11, which confirms Christ's promise of John 14:23:

    "But if the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ..." (Rom. 8:11a)

    Christ and the Father as the One who raised Christ from the dead, will come to the lover of Jesus as the divine "WE" and make a living abode in the one who sets his heart to love Jesus Christ.

    Pushback: "Romans 8:9-11 does not specifically say that the Father is indwelling the believers. The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead may just be the Spirit of the Father as another and not the Father Himself."

    Reply: But elsewhere Paul explicitly says the Father is in the believers in Christ -

    "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Eph. 4:6)

    " One God and Father ... who is ... IN ALL." (my emphasis)

    This "all" is not all the people in the world. It is all the believers in the Body of Christ. The Father is in all the members of the mystical Body of Christ.

    The believers are enjoying and experiencing the indwelling Father, the indwelling Son and the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is the experiencial ground for us to speak of the word "Trinity" - a nonbiblical word which CAN help us to phrase the mystery that we as Christians are experiencing.
  8. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jul '11 13:03
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What pagan ideology are you talking about? How much do you know about
    pagan ideology? Have you had any formal training on pagan ideology?
    What are your credentials and what references can you give us? Why
    should we believe you have the superior knowledge on the subject?
    What do you think I'm on about! The pagan origins of the trinity; have you been on meds for the last few weeks or are you just trolling again?
  9. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 13:285 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Matthew 12:30-32, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Acts 5:3-4, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.

    Want to try again?
    ======================================
    Matthew 12:30-32, does not say the Holy Spirit is God or a God.
    ======================================


    Are you suggesting the Christ would regard a blasphemy against the Son of God less serious than a blasphemy against a mere impersonal and non-living "force" ?

    "Therefore I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but blasphemy againstthe Spirit will not be forgiven.

    And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in t his age nor in the one to come."


    If your Watchtower "holy spirit" is just a force, why is the sin of speaking against it regarded as so serious by the Son ?

    The Apostle John writes that the Chrisitians know that GOD abides in them and they in GOD, by the Spirit that He has given to them:

    "No one has beheld God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

    In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:12,13)


    The words "Him" and "He" and "His" in verse 13 refer back to "God" in verse 12. The Christian KNOWS that God abides in him because of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
  10. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jul '11 13:43
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]================================
    Why complicate and compromise the truth with pagan ideology?
    =================================


    I have no idea what you are talking about.[/b]
    Are you saying you have never heard the claim that the trinity concept of the godhead has pagan origins?
  11. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 14:33
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you saying you have never heard the claim that the trinity concept of the godhead has pagan origins?
    ================================
    Are you saying you have never heard the claim that the trinity concept of the godhead has pagan origins?
    ====================================


    I have heard that claim.

    I don't know what you are talking about when it is refered to as a kind of slogan.
    I think you refered to the charge in a glib way which lacked any substance that I could see.

    I explained some things about the limitation of human language in conjunction with some mysterious utterances of the Bible. They had nothing to do with any pagan religions.
  12. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 14:431 edit
    The Experiencial Basis of the Trinity cont.

    Christ is located in two places in Romans chapter 8. He is said to be at the right hand of God interceding for the believers. And He said to be the indwelling Christ, the Christ living in each of the believers:

    Christ in Heaven interceding - "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34)

    Christ indwelling the believers - "But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)


    This is an experiencial verse on the Trinity. This is not about a merely OBJECTIVE God to be worshipped as an objective entity wholly outside of the worshipper. This is about Jesus Christ DISTRIBUTED to, and IMPARTED into many believers. He is at the same time at the right hand of God in the third heavens and He dwells in the Christians enlivening their innermost being, their human spirit because He is righteousness.

    The One interceding for the Christians is also the One living in them giving divine life to the very kernel of their spiritual being. Marvelous !
  13. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jul '11 15:252 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]================================
    Are you saying you have never heard the claim that the trinity concept of the godhead has pagan origins?
    ====================================


    I have heard that claim.

    I don't know what you are talking about when it is refered to as a kind of slogan.
    I think you refered to the charge in a glib ...[text shortened]... with some mysterious utterances of the Bible. They had nothing to do with any pagan religions.[/b]
    OK my friend.

    I disagree wholeheartedly with the trinity doctrine and with your claiming I was being glib.

    There is no such thing as the Eternal Son anywhere in the bible. The holy spirit is not to receive worship (but to enable it) and therefore cannot be co-equal. We don't need the scripture references as we both know them.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Jul '11 15:50
    Originally posted by divegeester
    What do you think I'm on about! The pagan origins of the trinity; have you been on meds for the last few weeks or are you just trolling again?
    You are on the wrong thread, Doofus.
  15. Joined
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    10 Jul '11 16:562 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    OK my friend.

    I disagree wholeheartedly with the trinity doctrine and with your claiming I was being glib.

    There is no such thing as the Eternal Son anywhere in the bible. The holy spirit is not to receive worship (but to enable it) and therefore cannot be co-equal. We don't need the scripture references as we both know them.
    ========================================
    I disagree wholeheartedly with the trinity doctrine and with your claiming I was being glib.

    There is no such thing as the Eternal Son anywhere in the bible. The holy spirit is not to receive worship (but to enable it) and therefore cannot be co-equal. We don't need the scripture references as we both know them.
    =====================================


    This line of exchange is likely to lead more into the doctrinal basis of the Trinity. (It is also likely to lead to some long verbose posts).

    Two complaints above:
    1.) There is no eternal Son in the Bible
    2.) The Holy SPirit is never to receive worshipped.

    Allow me to take #2 first. It depends upon what you happen to mean by "worship".

    In John chapter four to worship the Father in spirit and in truth is to drink of the living water of the Spirit of God. To "drink" the Spirit in as a "beverage" to quench a man's spiritual thirst, is worship.

    If you are famished for water in the desert and I place before you, on a table, a large glass of nice clear water, it would be foolish for you to bow down to it, sing a few hymns to it, and prostrate yourself before it in homage. But if you took the glass and DRANK of it to quench your thirst, this would be most vital to your enjoyment and survival.

    When you protest "Oh, But we are never suppose to worship the Holy Spirit" I regard this as religious nonsensical talk. Read carefully John ch. 4's words.

    "Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again, But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life." (John 4:13,14)

    After dealing with the woman's need to confess her sins, He goes back to the same subject of the thirst quenching salvation and says.

    "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness." (v.24)

    God in totality is Spirit. The nature of the complete Triune God is Spirit. To worship God the Spirit man must use his human spirit which is of the same nature as God is. This co-mingling of the human spirit with God Who is Spirit is like the drinking of living water. In fact the initial drink "installs" God the Spirit into the innermost part of man. And the issue of this installation is that the Spirit as living water will spring up into the whole being of the worshipper, into "eternal life".

    The enjoyment of God the Spirit is worship. And it is the worship in truthfulness that the Father desires.

    This word was given to instruct the Samaritan woman regarding her need to exercise her human spirit to contact God the Spirit. To contact God the Spirit with the human spirit is to drink of the living water, and to drink of the living water is to render real worship to God.

    The same theme is persued in First Corinthians by Paul:

    "For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body ... and were all given to DRINK one Spirit" (See 1 Cor. 12:13 my emphasis)

    The Holy Spirit is the final stage of God REACHING man. He is to be received within as a thirst quenching beverage. The Christians are baptized into Him and made to drink Him in. What we are immersed into is also the drink that we take into ourselves. This drinking of the one divine Holy Spirit certainly is a worship too.

    If I get together with a Christian brother and we enjoy the indwelling Holy Spirit by "drinking" Him in, that will be a wonderful time of worship.

    I think you're saying "the Holy Spirit is not to receive worship" seeks to relegate the life giving Spirit to a purely objectve relic of some kind rather than the divine life imparting "drink" the disciples are plunged into and must imbib into themselves.

    However a regenerated Christian enjoys the Spirit of God flowing in him, "watering" him, quenching his inner thirst, be it by whispering prayers, calling on His name, singing to the Lord, or turning the heart to the Lord while working or driving, is real worship in spirit and in truth.

    Your #1 complains that the Son is not eternal.

    The prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 says that the Son given will be called "Eternal Father".

    "For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government Is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"

    The child born is the eternal Mighty God. And the Son given is the incarnation of the Eternal Father. So the Son is eternal and He is incarnated.

    The Apostle John says the Son of God is the life which was with the Father. " ... That which was from the beginning, ... the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us." (1 John 1:1,2)

    As eternal as the Father is the divine life which was with the Father also is. If the Son is not eternal then the Eternal Father does not have an eternal life, which is absurd.

    The Word was with God. And the Word WAS God. (John 1:1). As eternal as God is the Word Who was with God and was God is.

    And the writer of the book of Hebrews emphasizes from the typology of Melchesidek, that the Son is eternal with no beginning or end of days:

    "[Melchisedec, king of righteousness, ... king of peace ... Being without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but likened to the Son of God, abides a priest perpetually." (See Hebrews 7:1-3)

    The Father is eternal (Isaiah 9:6).
    The Son is eternal (Heb. 7:3).
    The Spirit is eternal (Heb. 9:14).
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