The Experiencial Basis of the Trinity

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]========================================
I disagree wholeheartedly with the trinity doctrine and with your claiming I was being glib.

There is no such thing as the Eternal Son anywhere in the bible. The holy spirit is not to receive worship (but to enable it) and therefore cannot be co-equal. We don't need the scripture references as we both kn ...[text shortened]... eternal (Heb. 7:3).
The Spirit is eternal (Heb. 9:14).

Very well put. Maybe this will partially explain why I say I was taught
by the Holy Spirit. But some, even after reading this, will think we are
both lunatics.

Jaywill: "The Son is eternal (Heb. 7:3)"

This scripture in no ways says the Son is eternal.The office of son-ship will be handed over when the son hands all things over to the father. The "beginning and the end" are not eternal concepts they are temporal; that is way they have a 'beginning' and an 'end'.

Jesus is God revealed and in him dwells the Godhead fully, in bodily form. We agree who our God is, but the trinity is pagan in origin and denies God of his oneness and glory.

Originally posted by divegeester
[b] Jaywill: "The Son is eternal (Heb. 7:3)"

This scripture in no ways says the Son is eternal.The office of son-ship will be handed over when the son hands all things over to the father. The "beginning and the end" are not eternal concepts they are temporal; that is way they have a 'beginning' and an 'end'.

Jesus is God revealed and in him dw ...[text shortened]... our God is, but the trinity is pagan in origin and denies God of his oneness and glory.[/b]

================================================
This scripture in no ways says the Son is eternal.The office of son-ship will be handed over when the son hands all things over to the father. The "beginning and the end" are not eternal concepts they are temporal; that is way they have a 'beginning' and an 'end'.

Jesus is God revealed and in him dwells the Godhead fully, in bodily form. We agree who our God is, but the trinity is pagan in origin and denies God of his oneness and glory.
==========================================

I am going to take this comment over to the thread on the "Biblical Basis of the Trinity?" and reply to it there.

The Experiencial Basis of the Trinity cont.

Paul writes to a young church, the church in Thessalonika. His introduction contains words that we may easily take for granted. But they are very experiencial and significant:

"Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace." (1 Thess. 1:1)

This should not be read as any kind of religious sounding greeting. The church of the Thessalonians subsisted in a certain realm - that realm was in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.

They lived and moved in that sphere - the Triune God. The young Christians in Thessolonika could not have the Christian church life unless they lived and remained in the experience of this sphere - God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in this opening. But the Father and the Son are. And they are mentioned in the context of experience. The local church there existed by men living in the realm of the Father and the Son.

Same is true of the Paul's second letter to that congregation:

"Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 1:1,2)

The church subsists and exists in the Trinity as their life. And the empowering grace is dispensing to them from its source in the Father and the Son.

I have stayed out of this discussion simply because I lack the knowledge of scripture and because I cannot state my case like a trial lawyer as all these people parroting "the concept of Trinity is PAGAN!" do.

I do, however, wish to throw my support behind jaywill and his arguments, which I happen to agree with 100% in this case. Too bad he's just about the only one in this forum with not only the right concept, but the conviction to stand behind what he believes, even with the "PAGAN!"-shouters in his face, unlike some who have done a public about-face under the withering bombardment from the JWs.

Carry on, jaywill, I salute you.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled thread.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I have stayed out of this discussion simply because I lack the knowledge of scripture and because I cannot state my case like a trial lawyer as all these people parroting "the concept of Trinity is PAGAN!" do.

I do, however, wish to throw my support behind jaywill and his arguments, which I happen to agree with 100% in this case. Too bad he's just about ...[text shortened]... he JWs.

Carry on, jaywill, I salute you.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled thread.

Thankyou for the word of encouragement. And now they're really going to come after me. lol.

I appreciate the testimony of a number of believers on this forum since I have participated. We don't always "win" the argument. Maybe by God's mercy the gospel will win a few open hearts.

Originally posted by jaywill
Thankyou for the word of encouragement. And now they're really going to come after me. lol.

I appreciate the testimony of a number of believers on this forum since I have participated. We don't always "win" the argument. Maybe by God's mercy the gospel will win a few open hearts.

I hope you are able to do a better job than I have. I seem to have rubbed
people on this thread the wrong way with my harsh comments, especially
the two Jehovah's Witnesses. The evolutionary atheist don't have much
regard for me either. I have trouble putting forth my kinder, gentler self.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I hope you are able to do a better job than I have. I seem to have rubbed
people on this thread the wrong way with my harsh comments, especially
the two Jehovah's Witnesses. The evolutionary atheist don't have much
regard for me either. I have trouble putting forth my kinder, gentler self.

Perhaps you may be blocking the free flow of Gods Holy spirit?

(Galatians 5:22-23) . . .On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace,
long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,  mildness, self-control. Against such things
there is no law.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I have stayed out of this discussion simply because I lack the knowledge of scripture and because I cannot state my case like a trial lawyer as all these people parroting "the concept of Trinity is PAGAN!" do.

I do, however, wish to throw my support behind jaywill and his arguments, which I happen to agree with 100% in this case. Too bad he's just about he JWs.

Carry on, jaywill, I salute you.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled thread.

actually there are not a few learned individuals that also recognise the doctrines extra
biblical source, indeed, the internet is full of such sites, but then again, you would need
to look. As for me, i refuse to discuss this absurdity that is not even in the Bible.

Originally posted by divegeester
[b] Jaywill: "The Son is eternal (Heb. 7:3)"

This scripture in no ways says the Son is eternal.The office of son-ship will be handed over when the son hands all things over to the father. The "beginning and the end" are not eternal concepts they are temporal; that is way they have a 'beginning' and an 'end'.

Jesus is God revealed and in him dw ...[text shortened]... our God is, but the trinity is pagan in origin and denies God of his oneness and glory.[/b]

There is no such thing as the office of son-ship. Jesus is the Son of God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I hope you are able to do a better job than I have. I seem to have rubbed
people on this thread the wrong way with my harsh comments, especially
the two Jehovah's Witnesses. The evolutionary atheist don't have much
regard for me either. I have trouble putting forth my kinder, gentler self.

=================================
I hope you are able to do a better job than I have. I seem to have rubbed
people on this thread the wrong way with my harsh comments, especially
the two Jehovah's Witnesses. The evolutionary atheist don't have much
regard for me either. I have trouble putting forth my kinder, gentler self.
==================================

May God have mercy on us all.
I find praying before and after posting often helps me and honors my Father.

I always hope someone reading along may decide to open up there Bible and take a look for themselves.

This is much the way I got interested in the Christian faith.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
I hope you are able to do a better job than I have. I seem to have rubbed
people on this thread the wrong way with my harsh comments, especially
the two Jehovah's Witnesses. The evolutionary atheist don't have much
regard for me either. I have trouble putting forth my kinder, gentler self.
=================== ...[text shortened]... ake a look for themselves.

This is much the way I got interested in the Christian faith.

Maybe the Holy Spirit is using you to help put forth the correct message.
It appears that I was just stirring up a hornets nest.

More on the Experiencial Basis of the Trinity:

Paul in one letter speaks of his and the disciple's experience of God:

"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through his grace, to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15,16a) .

Paul was an opposer to the Christian church. There is probably no one here whose zeal to oppose and debunk the Christian message more than this man. He now says that he realizes that from birth, God chose to reveal His Son in him.

This is interestingly put. He does not talk merely about learning about Christ or agreeing with Christ in some objective philosophical sense. Rather, God intended that Jesus Christ would be revealed in Paul. Paul was to be transformed by having the Christ who can enter into man, reveal Himself in Paul's personality.

This is the Son of the Trinity being dispensed into Paul. He writes latter " ... it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)

The "me" is still there. But the "me" has Jesus Christ compounded into his being. He lives in oneness with the Christ in him. He lives as another unusual divine Person has been "grafted" into his ego. "And the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Paul is only a representative of the normal Christian life. And he writes that the Father has poured out the Spirit of His Son into the hearts of the believers, his audience, (the Christians of the churches in Galatia):

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying Abba Father!" (4:6)

The Son is in their experience. The Holy Spirit as the Spirit of His Son is in their experience. And the Father Who pours forth the Spirit of the Son into their hearts is in their experience. For it is because of the Spirit of the Son that they realize a most intimate union and relationship in life with the Father. He is now their "Daddy". He is now there most intimate "Abba", their "Papa" God.

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father!" (4:6)

The Father, sending forth the Holy Spirit, causes the Son to be revealed in them as well as in Paul the apostle. And through this indwelling Son of God they realize God the most intimate "Abba". God, our own "Daddy".

This is the experiencial basis of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God as One dispensed and imparted into man.

Then of course the Holy Spirit is the realm for the believers to walk in, step by step, in their daily lives to manifest the fruits of the Spirit:

"But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh." (5:16)

Jesus Christ totally overcame sin. And now the indwelling Son of God is Spirit within them. If they learn to "walk by the Spirit" they, in turn, will by no means be defeated by the lust of the flesh. Living in oneness with this indwelling Christ is the key to victory over sinning.

"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25)

Those of us who have experience with the Holy Spirit know that Paul knows what he is talking about. It is 2,000 years latter and the Holy Spirit, the living Son of God, and Abba Father are available to man even today.

This is part of the experiencial basis of the Trinity.

Originally posted by jaywill
More on the Experiencial Basis of the Trinity:

Paul in one letter speaks of his and the disciple's experience of God:

[b]"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through his grace, to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15,16a) .

Paul was an opposer to the Christian church. There is probably no one here w

This is part of the experiencial basis of the Trinity.[/b]

Jaywill, I enjoyed reading your line of thought on this. I can't say I would agree with every point, but I do agree that God is to be experienced. Perhaps this concept of the Trinity was the early fathers' way of explaining how they experienced God. Much to think about here.

Originally posted by Doward
Jaywill, I enjoyed reading your line of thought on this. I can't say I would agree with every point, but I do agree that God is to be experienced. Perhaps this concept of the Trinity was the early fathers' way of explaining how they experienced God. Much to think about here.

erased. I misunderstood you.