The futile "faith vs. works" debate

The "faithers" believe that saving faith auto-magically leads to good works.

The "works" people advocate such a strong adherence to the works demanded by Jesus, that they might as well be "faithers".

*** and with that, I have closed my own thread ***

*** and mayhaps, [optimistically] have put a few forum ranters out of business ***

@bigdoggproblem said
The "faithers" believe that saving faith auto-magically leads to good works.

The "works" people advocate such a strong adherence to the works demanded by Jesus, that they might as well be "faithers".

*** and with that, I have closed my own thread ***

*** and mayhaps, [optimistically] have put a few forum ranters out of business ***

Futile anything debate.

@eladar said
Futile anything debate.

Maybe for you.

Meanwhile, in the land of those who comprehend logic, and reason, we're doing just fine.

@bigdoggproblem said
Maybe for you.

Meanwhile, in the land of those who comprehend logic, and reason, we're doing just fine.

For all.

@bigdoggproblem said
The "faithers" believe that saving faith auto-magically leads to good works.

The "works" people advocate such a strong adherence to the works demanded by Jesus, that they might as well be "faithers".

*** and with that, I have closed my own thread ***

*** and mayhaps, [optimistically] have put a few forum ranters out of business ***

Jesus argued a case for works throughout his ministry.
The works people are in good company.

@bigdoggproblem said
The "faithers" believe that saving faith auto-magically leads to good works.

The "works" people advocate such a strong adherence to the works demanded by Jesus, that they might as well be "faithers".

*** and with that, I have closed my own thread ***

*** and mayhaps, [optimistically] have put a few forum ranters out of business ***

lol. Nice try. Required more than a bit of sophistry, but nice try nonetheless.

@bigdoggproblem said
The "faithers" believe that saving faith auto-magically leads to good works.

The "works" people advocate such a strong adherence to the works demanded by Jesus, that they might as well be "faithers".

*** and with that, I have closed my own thread ***

*** and mayhaps, [optimistically] have put a few forum ranters out of business ***

It is a matter of what we do and why.
Are you doing good works to earn something, or are you doing them because it is out of the motivation of the heart. If it for a reward you are attempting to earn something, if it is the motivation of the heart it is because your heart is properly guided by love to do right by the needs around you.

Those that want to earn their way in, that want to be better than the next guy like pointing out why they are better. They can point to their righteous deeds and say, "See here I'm righteous much more than you." this bragging is only shows that they care for little besides the praise of others.

The "faith" people still have to deal with motivation but the difference is we cannot say we are good by the deeds we do, by the those sins we no longer commit, by anything that we can brag about. Our righteousness is given to us by Jesus Christ and we cannot add to that, attempting too only shows we think Jesus' blood for our sins isn't enough.

Ephesians 2 New International Version (NIV)
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

@kellyjay said
It is a matter of what we do and why.
Are you doing good works to earn something, or are you doing them because it is out of the motivation of the heart. If it for a reward you are attempting to earn something, if it is the motivation of the heart it is because your heart is properly guided by love to do right by the needs around you.

Those that want to earn their way in ...[text shortened]... d’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

He does not give a flip. All he wants to do is have an opportunity to belittle Christians.

@eladar said
He does not give a flip. All he wants to do is have an opportunity to belittle Christians.

The thing about this life is we all show what we are, we do it by caring for people or attacking them. Following through on promises, or breaking our words, by being gentle or hateful. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, if all someone wants is a chance to belittle that will be both the motivation of their lives and the end result of it too.

@kellyjay said
The thing about this life is we all show what we are, we do it by caring for people or attacking them. Following through on promises, or breaking our words, by being gentle or hateful. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, if all someone wants is a chance to belittle that will be both the motivation of their lives and the end result of it too.

Do believers in Jesus face "damnation" if they "attack" people or if they are "hateful" or if they "belittle" someone

@kellyjay said
The thing about this life is we all show what we are, we do it by caring for people or attacking them. Following through on promises, or breaking our words, by being gentle or hateful. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, if all someone wants is a chance to belittle that will be both the motivation of their lives and the end result of it too.

Or by never learning and never dusting yourself off so that they do not have sport at you.

@rajk999 said
Jesus argued a case for works throughout his ministry.
The works people are in good company.

He also argued for faith.

@thinkofone said
lol. Nice try. Required more than a bit of sophistry, but nice try nonetheless.

What a shock! Too refuses to engage. *yawn*

@eladar said
He does not give a flip. All he wants to do is have an opportunity to belittle Christians.

Oh, fvck off, you troll. Let the grown-ups talk.

@kellyjay said
It is a matter of what we do and why.
Are you doing good works to earn something, or are you doing them because it is out of the motivation of the heart. If it for a reward you are attempting to earn something, if it is the motivation of the heart it is because your heart is properly guided by love to do right by the needs around you.

Those that want to earn their way in ...[text shortened]... d’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I actually agree that good works ought to be done out of a primary motivation to help the other person.

Gamesmanship is selfish.