The Gospel as God's Need

Originally posted by jaywill
.. Do have any comments about God's Need - yes or no ?

For a man to think he knows what Gods needs are, and to think he can satisfy Gods needs is arrogance of the highest order.

All of your teachings Jaywill lacks humility.

I have never once seen any post of yours which explains the true teachings of Christ which is to love your neighbour as your self, to be charitable and do good works.

You have on the contrary said the opposite .. which is that good works are not important.

Originally posted by jaywill
That's a little better. Actually your first post was not bad.
I'll think about a reply when I have time latter.

If you skim and don't read the supporting passages, my opinion is that the loss is yours. Anyway, I think someone will be benefitted, otherwise I wouldn't write for the public.

Now, very briefly - God's need verses God's desire ? Maybe ...[text shortened]... son to return home ?

I do regard the tone of these parables along those lines.

God is supposedly a non-contingent being. A wholly self-contained and eternal being who is dependent on nothing outside of himself. He is allegedly the necessary uncaused cause from which all other causal chains radiate outward. Your contention that god could need anything external to himself undercuts all that with one stroke.

This is not a case of 'god making man in his image'. It's a case, rather, of man making god in his own image and projecting all his own foibles onto that god. God doesn't need a wife, a job or children. He has supposedly existed for all eternity without those things. Why in the name of god would he need them now?

Originally posted by Rajk999
For a man to think he knows what Gods needs are, and to think he can satisfy Gods needs is arrogance of the highest order.

All of your teachings Jaywill lacks humility.

I have never once seen any post of yours which explains the true teachings of Christ which is to love your neighbour as your self, to be charitable and do good works.

You have on the contrary said the opposite .. which is that good works are not important.

For a man to think he knows what Gods needs are, and to think he can satisfy Gods needs is arrogance of the highest order.

I think the Man who meets the need of God and man is Jesus Christ.

It is God's need to wrought this Christ into our beings. This is called sanctification and transformation.

Did you never read it ? "Christ IN YOU .... the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27) .

All of your teachings Jaywill lacks humility.

I would be re-informing you of something which I previously wrote to you, at least once or twice already.

"That as it is written, He who boasts let him boast in the Lord" (1 Cor. 1:31)

My boast is absolutely in the Lord Jesus, Whom Paul says has been made to us "wisdom ... both righteousness and sanctification and redemption".

I am thankful for this all-inclusive and bountifully rich Christ. That is not arrogant.

I have never once seen any post of yours which explains the true teachings of Christ which is to love your neighbour as your self, to be charitable and do good works.

You have on the contrary said the opposite .. which is that good works are not important.

Nay to this. The Apostle John teaches that love is the expression of the one who has passed from death to life.

There are two passages only which speak of man passing from death to life. They are John 5:24 and First John 3:14.

I believe BOTH passages equally. Let's compare them:

1.) John 5:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life."

The person who believes Christ's word and the Father Who sent Christ His Son has PASSED out of death into life, eternal life.

2.) First John 3:13,14 - "Do not marvel, brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers. He who does not love abides in death."

Divine love, especially for the brotherhood of believers, is evidence by which we know that we have passed from death into life, eternal life.

You may accuse me of only believing John 5:24. And most of our talking has been about the assurance of eternal salvation. But I also stand upon First John 3:14. And I know that the Agape Love, the divine love which God has planted in my heart, especially for the household of faith, is the evidence of my having passed from death to eternal life.

Now, I need to return to the subject matter of this thread - God's Need.

Originally posted by jaywill
Most presentations of the Gospel are from the standpoint of the need of man. There certainly exists another angle in the Bible. And that is of the need of God. God has a need. Yes or no ?

I will present wonderful evidence of this angle of the Gospel. That God has His need.

I think "desire" or "will" would be more accurate a word to describe God's viewpoint.

"Need" is usually reserved for the incomplete, or those lacking something.

Originally posted by rwingett
God is supposedly a non-contingent being. A wholly self-contained and eternal being who is dependent on nothing outside of himself. He is allegedly the necessary uncaused cause from which all other causal chains radiate outward. Your contention that god could need anything external to himself undercuts all that with one stroke.

This is not a case xisted for all eternity without those things. Why in the name of god would he need them now?

God is supposedly a non-contingent being. A wholly self-contained and eternal being who is dependent on nothing outside of himself.

I balance my intake of theological and philosophical axioms with the pure words of Scripture. So while I don't disagree with your above statement, I have to consider what Scripture says the way Scripture says it.

And in this case I will leave out the quotes. And I will see of you will turn around and exploit the fact that I have not justified this statement -

"I have to consider whatr Scripture says the way Scripture says it."

Concise enough for you ?

He is allegedly the necessary uncaused cause from which all other causal chains radiate outward. Your contention that god could need anything external to himself undercuts all that with one stroke.

To repeat - I must consider what Scripture says and the way Scripture says it[/b].

I mean, it is good to read Thomas Aquinas, or Calvin, or some other theologians. It may be good to consider some creeds or philosophical theorems as you are relying on.

But I have to consider the utterances of the pure word of the Scripture too. And there I see a God who desires to be completed and expanded:

"He [Christ the Son of God] must increase, but I must decrease." (John 3:30)

The full God who is embodied in Christ (Col. 1:19; 2:9) needs to ENCREASE. He desires an expansion. He desires to expand into mankind. He desires to dispense Himself into man that He may gain an ENCREASE and a MAGNIFICATION.

" .. even now Christ will be MAGNIFIED in my body, whether through life or through death." (Philppians 1:20)

The God who is EVERYWHERE - omnipresent, nevertheless desires to be MAGNIFIED in Paul and in ALL believers. We may ask - "If God is everywhere, then why does He need to be ENLARGED, ie. MAGNIFIED ?"

Apparently God desires and needs to be made bigger by being infused into man. Paul follows this saying with this -

" ... Christ will be magnified in my body ... For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain."

For Paul to LIVE is for Paul to live Christ, live through Christ, and have Christ living in him. When Christ lives in Paul and Paul lives through Christ, Christ is MAGNIFIED, enlarged. made larger. The omnipresent God is enlarged and encreased. He must encrease. He needs to encreasee by man living in, unto, and through Himself.

This is not a case of 'god making man in his image'.

I consider God making man in His image much like a glove being made in the image of a human hand.

The glove has that image so that the human hand may gfit comfortably into the glove. This is an analogy.

We are made in the image of God so that this invisible and eternal Person may "fit" into us and we be His expression as He moves about. This is how I think about man being made in the image of God.

Paul said that it pleased God to REVEAL Christ IN him -

"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME that I might announce Him as the gospel among the Gentiles ..." (Galatians 1:15)

God has Christ. But it pleases God to REVEAL Christ in the people whom Christ saves. It is God's need to magnify His omnipresent being by dispensing Himself as the Spirit, through Christ into man.

It's a case, rather, of man making god in his own image and projecting all his own foibles onto that god.

Had what you said be entirely true in the case of Jesus Christ, then He would have been welcomed rather than persecuted and crucified.

The fierce hatred and opposition to Jesus Christ PROVES that He was NOT simply a reflection of what the religious mind concocts.

Very much the same could be said for the continual opposition and rebellion to Jehovah God in the Old Testament, except for bright moments here and there when people " GOT IT " and saw the precious value of what God is.

God doesn't need a wife, a job or children. He has supposedly existed for all eternity without those things. Why in the name of god would he need them now?

He certainly passes through tremendous trouble to obtain the New Jerusalem as the Bride and Wife of the Lord Jesus. The climax of the Bible is the WIFE, the BRIDE, and the SONS of God for eternity.

He apparently needs this expansion, this encrease, this magnification of Himself dwelling in and saturating a "city" of saved people.

God needs to dispense His life and nature into His creature man. It is His "good pleasure" to do so.

" ... making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ." (Eph. 1:9)

"Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (1:5)

He has a need for His pleasure to be satisfied - His divine and eternal "GOOD PLEASURE".

Originally posted by josephw
I think "desire" or "will" would be more accurate a word to describe God's viewpoint.

"Need" is usually reserved for the incomplete, or those lacking something.

I think "desire" or "will" would be more accurate a word to describe God's viewpoint.

"Need" is usually reserved for the incomplete, or those lacking something.

Tell me how you think about this passage please.

"Thus says Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel ... Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And concerning the work of My hands, command Me." (Isaiah 45:11)


Could not God unilaterally do whatever He wishes ? Is God not able simply to perform His will with no help from man ?

It seems that He desires here His people to be so one with Him that they would COMMAND Him concerning the works of His hands. He desires that man would be on the earth and so ECHO His own plan that He awaits this cooperative partner to COMMAND Him.

" ... And concerning the work of My hands, command Me."


But God, why are you waiting for a command from poor pitiful and needy us ? Why do you not simply rise up and DO whatever is in Your great heart to do?

How do you feel about this ? It seems God has purposely limited Himself. He has taken a chance. If man is not on earth with a corresponding desire to His desire, He is hindered.

"Concerning the work of My hands COMMAND ME"

Do you see the Almighty God as NEEDING the cooperation and coordination of His creature man? Do you see God needing the echo of His "sons" to give the command for Him to move and act ?

I do here.

Originally posted by jaywill

I think "desire" or "will" would be more accurate a word to describe God's viewpoint.

"Need" is usually reserved for the incomplete, or those lacking something.

Tell me how you think about this passage please.

[b]"Thus says Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel ... Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And concern ...[text shortened]... f His [b]"sons" to give the command for Him to move and act ?

I do here.[/b]

I see you stretching it to make it infer what you want it to mean.

For one thing jaywill, God was speaking to His chosen people, Israel, and not to us gentiles in the verse you used.

I know you don't see the significance of that. The Body of Christ and Israel are two separate entities.

Originally posted by josephw
I see you stretching it to make it infer what you want it to mean.

For one thing jaywill, God was speaking to His chosen people, Israel, and not to us gentiles in the verse you used.

I know you don't see the significance of that. The Body of Christ and Israel are two separate entities.

I see you stretching it to make it infer what you want it to mean.

I would like you to tell me WHY ... WHY God would ask for a COMMAND from these His people ?

At least, I think, you should see that God CHOOSES here, not to act apart from the corresponding sympathy, coordination, cooperation of His people Israel.

Is this really a stretch on my part ? Well, tell us why God should limit His operation by waiting for the COMMAND of those His elect on earth.

For one thing jaywill, God was speaking to His chosen people, Israel, and not to us gentiles in the verse you used.

I agree that this is the Old Testament. However, is not the church called "the Israel of God"?

"And as many as walk by this rule, peace be upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:16)

Whether the Old Testament Israel or the New Testament Galatian churches of the Gentiles as "the Israel of God" some things remain somewhat constant.

God is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think. But He wants us TO ask and TO think.

Is there a corresponding passage in the new covenant to the Isaiah passage that Israel command Him concerning His works ? I think you will find a similar hearts desire around the 14 - 17 chapters of the Gospel of John.

"If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you." (John 15:7)


1.) I don't believe that this New Testament asking is for trivialities. It must concern the great things related to the Father's True Vine and its bearing of fruit. Context strongly implies this.

2.) I don't believe that this asking is too individualistic. I think it is a CORPORATE asking. It is a collective asking of the brothers who abide in Christ and who love one another.

They are to ASK and Christ will do whatever it is they ask. This is not the asking for a new job, a new car, a better house or some other lowly matter to spend upon our lust. This is the ASKING according to God's economy of the True Vine and the fruit bearing branches for the glorification of the Father.

I believe that this ASKING and Christ granting is the new covenant echo to the passage of Isaiah 45:11 that Israel command God concerning the work of His hands.

I see that it is rather difficult to get people to see the Gospel from the standpoint of the need of God. We are so focused on our poor condition and God's total autonomy.

So far the reactions have been appalled that I should suggest that the Almighty might desire to be, shall we say, completed with the coordination of His creature man.

I know you don't see the significance of that. The Body of Christ and Israel are two separate entities.

I do see a distinction. But what about principles ?

I ask you this now. In the Babylonian Captivity the prophet Daniel prayed for God to bring the people BACK to the good land after 70 years.

Did God NEED Daniel to pray ? Daniel learned that the captivity would last for 70 years. Why didn't Daniel have this attitude ?

"Well, God, I read in Jeremiah's prophecy that after 70 years You would bring back a remnant of Jews to the Good Land. So I just suppose we need to wait. No need to ASK you about it. No need to COMMAND you about Your own word. We can just passively WAIT for you to fulfill the prophecy."


Daniel did not have this attitude. Did he? He opened his window towards Jerusalem, from Babylon, and at the risk of his life, he PRAYED. He PETITIONED. He made intercession that God would bring the Israelites BACK to the promise land from which they had been uprooted.

I dare say that Daniel PRAYED and COMMANDED God concerning the work of His hands according to His own promise.

What do you think ? Did God NEED Daniel's prayers ? Daniel seemed to believe that God must have.

Originally posted by rwingett
God is supposedly a non-contingent being. A wholly self-contained and eternal being who is dependent on nothing outside of himself. He is allegedly the necessary uncaused cause from which all other causal chains radiate outward. Your contention that god could need anything external to himself undercuts all that with one stroke.

This is not a case xisted for all eternity without those things. Why in the name of god would he need them now?

He has supposedly existed for all eternity without those things. Why in the name of god would he need them now?

I don't know. Maybe our concept of what time is and what eternity is, is somewhat inadaquate.

Originally posted by jaywill

He has supposedly existed for all eternity without those things. Why in the name of god would he need them now?

I don't know. Maybe our concept of what time is and what eternity is, is somewhat inadaquate.

Maybe your concept of god is inadequate. Did you ever consider that?

Originally posted by rwingett
Maybe your concept of god is inadequate. Did you ever consider that?

Absolutely. Everyday.

However, no need to discard everything.

And you may have noticed that I refered to Paul's word that God is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think.

Doesn't that imply that I realize He is NOT limited to my concepts ?

God's need is not related to us giving Him something but to God giving Himself to us. I say, not His giving of things so much as His giving to us Himself.

Likewise God's need is not so much of man doing something for Him, but of God doing something IN man. Christ was Man in Whom God lived, spoke, moved, and did. He is the standard model of the God-man.

God's need is not related to our giving to Him because He is poor. Rather it is related to Him giving Himself to us because He is so rich.

"Come, for all things are now ready" says the man in the parable. If I come to the dinner with a loaf of bread, the host would not be pleased. All things are ready. I only need to come.

A little while ago someone posted a link to the song "People Get Ready", a Gospel Rock classic from the 60s. It was by Curtis Mayfield.

"Don't need no ticket. Just get on board.
Don't need no baggage. Just thank the Lord."

The tone of that pop song was similar to Christ's parable of the rich dinner host. Everything is prepared and ready. The host only needs guests to fill his dining room.

At least in this parable God does not want us to give something to Him; neither does He want us to do something for Him. When we come, we should not come with our hands full of things.

Seems that we can come and put aside our faith, our zeal, our work and recognize that "all things are ready." God only needs us to COME, to COME, to COME to the rich feast of His salvation.

In a sense God wants us to come with our hearts empty so that He may fill our hearts. We have nothing to give Him. But He has Himself to give to us.
This is His need, to have some into whom He can dispense Himself.

Originally posted by Rajk999
For a man to think he knows what Gods needs are, and to think he can satisfy Gods needs is arrogance of the highest order.

All of your teachings Jaywill lacks humility.

I have never once seen any post of yours which explains the true teachings of Christ which is to love your neighbour as your self, to be charitable and do good works.

You have on the contrary said the opposite .. which is that good works are not important.

You're probably not going to like me agreeing with you, but that's what I got from Jesus' teachings too. A lot of christians seem to overlook this simple message in their eagerness to worship their creed.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So your god would be kind of like a 50 year old dude who desperately needs the adoration and companionship of the 4 year old set in the playground.

So your god would be kind of like a 50 year old dude who desperately needs the adoration and companionship of the 4 year old set in the playground.

The vigor, the youthfulness, the ever fresh vitality, the exhaustless energy, the victory over oldness and decay belong to the God who gives eternal life.

The oldness, the weariness, the agedness, decay, decreptitude and death belongs to the fools who turn their backs on the God who is eternal life.

You kind of have it all backwards and turned around, as usual.

The Bible is the only book that tells us that God can be our habitation:

"O Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations ..." (Psalm 90:1)

The Bible alone speaks of God coming to dwell in man to make man His corporate "house" and "habitation". This is presented as a mutual need. From God's side He needs in this suniverse a "vessel" or container as a dwelling place. That dwelling place He requires is the creature He has created - man.

Here God speaks of the house He seeks, not in heaven, but in a man:

"Thus says Jehovah, Heaven is my throne, And the earth is My footstool for My feet. Where is the house that you will build for Me, And where is the place of My rest? For all these things My hand has made, And so these things have come into being, declares Jehovah.

But to this kind of man will I look, to [him] who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word." (Isaiah 66:1,2)

Heaven, earth, the universe have "come into being" through the act of God's creating. Mankind also has "come into being" though God's creating.

But He cannot find His rest by dwelling omnipresently in earth and heaven. He cannot find His resting place in all the universe that He has made but only in man who receives Him into himself. This is why He says -

"But to this kind of man will I look ..."


"Look" for what ? For what reason will God look towards a certain kind of man ? It is for His resting place, His dwelling place. The suitable place of the rest of the eternal God is in this kind of man. God seeks and God needs a place of dwelling and rest within man of His creating:

No other book beside the Bible reveals God seeking a "rest" by living in a living part of His own creation - man. This first occured in reality in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Jesus Christ - "the Word became flesh and TABERNACLED among us" (John 1:14) was the PROTOTYPE of that "man" to whom God would look - "who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word."


The climax of the Bible is God finding a collective and corporate dwelling place of God in spirit - the New Jerusalem -

"And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a loud voice put of the throne, saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God." (Revelation 21:2,3)