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04 Feb 18
Not endorsing the concept of a works-based salvation, which I think is completely false, but for argument’s sake, how do people who incorrectly believe in a works-based salvation think one should do good works and keep “Jesus’ commandments?”
The two greatest commandments, according to Jesus, are to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. On those two commandments, Jesus said, hang all the law and prophets.
So how does one keep them?
04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009It's not enough just to "keep" them (the commandments). One must keep them perfectly.
Not endorsing the concept of a works-based salvation, which I think is completely false, but for argument’s sake, how do people who incorrectly believe in a works-based salvation think one should do good works and keep “Jesus’ commandments?”
The two greatest commandments, according to Jesus, are to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength ...[text shortened]... those two commandments, Jesus said, hang all the law and prophets.
So how does one keep them?
Only Jesus can do that.
Question is then, how can one be saved?
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04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @secondsonYes, I agree. I was adopting the position of salvation by works proponents for argument’s sake and asking for their position on how one keeps the commandments and never sins (as they claim or imply is the standard of a true Christian.)
It's not enough just to "keep" them (the commandments). One must keep them perfectly.
Only Jesus can do that.
Question is then, how can one be saved?
04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @secondsonHow does 'trying your best' and then seeing what happens ~ i.e. whether you are "saved" or not ~ when you are "judged" by your god figure? It seems more credible than Christians going around declaring themselves already and irreversibly "saved" because they think certain things about themselves and about Jesus.
Question is then, how can one be saved?
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Originally posted by @fmf<...because they think certain things about themselves and about Jesus.[/b]>
How does 'trying your best' and then seeing what happens ~ i.e. whether you are "saved" or not ~ when you are "judged" by your god figure? It seems more credible than Christians going around declaring themselves already and irreversibly "saved" because they think certain things about themselves and about Jesus.
That’s not how one is saved.
04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Think stuff = Believe stuff
<...because they think certain things about themselves and about Jesus.>
That’s not how one is saved.[/b]
04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Think stuff about Jesus = Believe stuff about Jesus. Think stuff about "grace" = Believe stuff about "grace". Think stuff about the significance of the resurrection = Believe stuff about the significance of the resurrection. Plus maybe do 'good works', depending on your particular strain of Christian theology.Thus: "Saved".
Wrong. It’s incredible that you don’t know how one is saved according to the Bible. How could you possibly not know after all the time you spend on this forum? Do you really not know, or are you trolling?
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04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @fmfSad. But I won’t explain why unless you ask me. It’s not worth the effort if you’re just trolling and/or not interested.
Think stuff about Jesus = Believe stuff about Jesus. Think stuff about "grace" = Believe stuff about "grace". Think stuff about the significance of the resurrection = Believe stuff about the significance of the resurrection. Plus maybe do 'good works', depending on your particular strain of Christian theology.Thus: "Saved".
04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009I am fully aware that my characterization of Christian belief in "salvation" - although perhaps a bit terse and unsentimental - is spot on, your disagreement notwithstanding. I've been witnessing and engaging Christian-thought up close for getting on for half-a-century. Please do not feel you have to make any effort to do anything on my account.
Sad. But I won’t explain why unless you ask me. It’s not worth the effort if you’re just trolling and/or not interested.
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04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @fmfNo problem. You saved me time and trouble. Thanks🙂
I am fully aware that my characterization of Christian belief in "salvation" - although perhaps a bit terse and unsentimental - is spot on, your disagreement notwithstanding. I've been witnessing and engaging Christian-thought up close for getting on for half-a-century. Please do not feel you have to make any effort to do anything on my account.
Originally posted by @secondsonSecondson, I'll repeat this response to your post again, if I may, in case it's been a bit buried by subsequent posts.
It's not enough just to "keep" them (the commandments). One must keep them perfectly.
Only Jesus can do that.
Question is then, how can one be saved?
How does 'trying your best' sound and then seeing what happens ~ i.e. whether you are "saved" or not ~ when you are "judged" by your god figure? It seems more credible than Christians going around declaring themselves already and irreversibly "saved" because they think certain things about themselves and about Jesus.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
A "covenant" consists of words. This is what Jesus delivered in the gospel that He preached during His ministry. It's nonsensical to say that "He was speaking about His imminent trip to the cross." Especially since he wasn't speaking in future tense
He was speaking of His death which He had predicted.
Ie. "These symbols signify My broken body and my spilled blood."
He spoke of these symbols on the night in which He was betrayed, just before His arrest, trial, and execution.
"... the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread,
and having given thanks, He broke it and said, This is My body which is given for you ... " (See 1 Cor. 11:23-26)
He enacted this symbolic supper not after He was tried and killed, but before so.
04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @secondsonI'm advocating for the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. That is not the same as making myself "lord over others" as you put it.
Yes, I get it that you have made yourself interpreter and authority over the Word of God, subsequently also, based on your posting record, judge over the souls of men that disagree with you.
The hypocrisy in your post above proves how delinquent your understanding is. You choose what scriptures are valid and which are not, then criticize those that sta ...[text shortened]... ismiss their validity and frame the argument in such a way as to make yourself lord over others.
In my previous post, I provided a rough sketch of my understanding of what that entails. If you believe that my understanding is incorrect, then show where it differs from the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. If you believe it is correct, then make a case that the gospel of Paul should be the foundation rather than the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
I wonder if you have the spiritual fortitude to answer the question I posed to you in a previous post. Unless of course you think you're above needing a redeemer.
If by "needing a redeemer" you have in mind the "atoning sacrifice", aka the "redemptive work of Christ’s death", your earlier question has no meaning in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. That's the point of the OP. Reread it if need be. If you mean something else, then explain it to me.
Either address the OP or address what I've written above.
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04 Feb 18
Originally posted by @fmf
I am fully aware that my characterization of Christian belief in "salvation" - although perhaps a bit terse and unsentimental - is spot on, your disagreement notwithstanding. I've been witnessing and engaging Christian-thought up close for getting on for half-a-century. Please do not feel you have to make any effort to do anything on my account.
You sure sound rather sentimental and self congratulatory about how long you have been arguing with believers.