1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 19:484 edits
    Please state in specific language what you believe to be the:

    1. Necessary conditions for entering Heaven.
    2. Sufficient conditions for entering Heaven.
    3. Necessary conditions for being condemned to Hell.
    4. Sufficient conditions for being condemned to Hell.

    I'm fed up with all the wishy-washy talk about this. If you have
    beliefs on the subject, have the balls to state them for the record.
    Or state that you have no beliefs on the subject.

    Please note that if you believe that God has no specific criteria for putting
    people in one place or the other, your answer should be, "I believe that
    there are no necessary or sufficient conditions for entering Heaven or Hell,"
    and not, "The question is flawed."

    Dr. S
  2. Donationbbarr
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    16 Mar '05 20:14
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Please state in specific language what you believe to be the:

    1. Necessary conditions for entering Heaven.
    2. Sufficient conditions for entering Heaven.
    3. Necessary conditions for being condemned to Hell.
    4. Sufficient conditions for being condemned to Hell.

    I'm fed up with all the wishy-washy talk about this. If you have
    beliefs on ...[text shortened]... ficient conditions for entering Heaven or Hell,"
    and not, "The question is flawed."

    Dr. S
    Presumably, even if God has no specific criteria for salvation/damnation, if even one person has been or will be saved/damned, then there are sufficient conditions (e.g., 'it is sufficient for being saved/damned that God decide to save/damn you). Of course, such a condition would be banal. Further, if there are sufficient conditions, then there must be at least one necessary condition, though this may well take the form of a complex disjunction (e.g., 'it is necessary for one to be saved/damned that either P, Q, R...).
  3. Standard memberwib
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    16 Mar '05 20:19
    I have no beliefs in regard to entering heaven or hell. My only belief is that neither exists.

  4. Joined
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    16 Mar '05 20:23
    What about thre crazy notion that we *ourselves* are the ones that determine our afterlife destination based upon our actions of this life and all previous ones?

    I think a person should take responsibilty for their actions, not through fear of retribution or the hope for the eternal payoff but through the understanding of causes and results.
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    16 Mar '05 20:26
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Please state in specific language what you believe to be the:

    1. Necessary conditions for entering Heaven.
    2. Sufficient conditions for entering Heaven.
    3. Necessary conditions for being condemned to Hell.
    4. Sufficient conditions for being condemned to Hell.

    I'm fed up with all the wishy-washy talk about this. If you have
    beliefs on ...[text shortened]... ficient conditions for entering Heaven or Hell,"
    and not, "The question is flawed."

    Dr. S
    My Dear Good Doctor,

    As penance for my bad post in your other thread, I will try to be as specific as possible:

    1) I don’t think the questions are at all flawed, but

    2) I don’t know. That’s why I keep asking the questions I do. (If that’s not “ballsy” enough—sorry.)

    3) All of my theological study right now is aimed at the question of whether or not “radical grace” could mean that there are no necessary conditions for humans to meet.

    4) If there is heaven and hell, the only sufficient condition that I can be sure of would be if a person makes a knowing choice at that point when s/he no longer “sees as through a mirror dimly,” and no longer “knows only in part,” but “in full.” (C.S. Lewis raises this possibility in The Great Divorce.

    Maybe, you’ll get better answers from others.
  6. Joined
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    16 Mar '05 20:29
    Originally posted by eagles54
    What about thre crazy notion that we *ourselves* are the ones that determine our afterlife destination based upon our actions of this life and all previous ones?

    I think a person should take responsibilty for their actions, not through fear of retribution or the hope for the eternal payoff but through the understanding of causes and results.
    Naw, that question/statement /thought, is from the pit of hell. That just satan trying seek a way out of his judgement.
  7. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    16 Mar '05 20:31
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Please state in specific language what you believe to be the:

    1. Necessary conditions for entering Heaven.
    2. Sufficient conditions for entering Heaven.
    3. Necessary conditions for being condemned to Hell.
    4. Sufficient conditions for being condemned to Hell.

    I'm fed up with all the wishy-washy talk about this. If you have
    beliefs on ...[text shortened]... ficient conditions for entering Heaven or Hell,"
    and not, "The question is flawed."

    Dr. S
    1) Vacancy
    2) Airfare
    3) Vacancy
    4) Busfare
  8. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    16 Mar '05 20:39
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Please state in specific language what you believe to be the:

    1. Necessary conditions for entering Heaven.
    2. Sufficient conditions for entering Heaven.
    3. Necessary conditions for being condemned to Hell.
    4. Sufficient conditions for being condemned to Hell.

    I'm fed up with all the wishy-washy talk about this. If you have
    beliefs on ...[text shortened]... ficient conditions for entering Heaven or Hell,"
    and not, "The question is flawed."

    Dr. S
    To enter Heaven, it is necessary that Darfius endorse one's application. It is sufficient, but not necessary, that RBHILL endorse one's application.

    If one does not enter heaven, one enters hell, and clearly either of the reviewers can either endorse or not endorse one's application.

    Thus it is sufficient for entering hell that Darfius not endorse one's application to heaven. If RBHILL fails to endorse, but Darfius does, then one goes to heaven. If, however, Darfius does not endorse, but RBHILL does, then one goes to hell because Darfius does not failed to endorse, but one goes to heaven since RBHILL's endorsement is sufficient for heaven-entry. Either we're at an impasse, or Darfius and RBHILL have identical endorsements, or heaven and hell are the same place (since the previous paragraph contains no biconditional). From reading the forums, I find in favour of the third option.
  9. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 20:47
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Of course, such a condition would be banal. Further, if there are sufficient conditions, then there must be at least one necessary condition, though this may well take the form of a complex disjunction (e.g., 'it is necessary for one to be saved/damned that either P, Q, R...).
    To be sure. I formulated my question in such a way so that a person without beliefs on, for example, necessary conditions for entering heaven could still posit some sufficient conditions for entering heaven, such as the conjunction of being baptized and confessing a belief in Jesus as one's saviour.

    It brings me great pleasure to see you back. We could always use more sentences of substance.
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    16 Mar '05 21:39
    Originally posted by blindfaith101
    Naw, that question/statement /thought, is from the pit of hell. That just satan trying seek a way out of his judgement.
    You may find one day that an intractable mind is what leads directly to that pit of hell.
  11. London
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    16 Mar '05 21:59
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Please state in specific language what you believe to be the:

    1. Necessary conditions for entering Heaven.
    2. Sufficient conditions for entering Heaven.
    3. Necessary conditions for being condemned to Hell.
    4. Sufficient conditions for being condemned to Hell.

    I'm fed up with all the wishy-washy talk about this. If you have
    beliefs on ...[text shortened]... ficient conditions for entering Heaven or Hell,"
    and not, "The question is flawed."

    Dr. S
    Let's give it a shot:

    1. Grace
    2. Sincere repentance for sins and a strong desire to be with God for all eternity
    3 and 4. Dying in a state of mortal sin
  12. Standard memberHand of Hecate
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    16 Mar '05 22:09
    Originally posted by eagles54
    You may find one day that an intractable mind is what leads directly to that pit of hell.
    I agree, the inability to objectively analyze oneself and one's beliefs is surely damnable. At the very least a boot to the jumblies is in order.
  13. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 22:092 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Let's give it a shot:

    1. Grace
    2. Sincere repentance for sins and a strong desire to be with God for all eternity
    3 and 4. Dying in a state of mortal sin
    Excellent. We now have something to work with.

    To clarify your (2), is sincere repentence along with a strong desire to be with any god sufficient, or does only some particular god qualify for this condition?

    Also, I note that you didn't list a belief in Jesus' death and resurrection as a necessary condition for entering Heaven. Was that intentional? Is it possible to get to Heaven while rejecting the triune God depicted in the New Testament, as long as you have Grace and have met a sufficient condition such as repentence and a desire to be with the God of the Old Testament?

  14. Joined
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    16 Mar '05 22:14
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Excellent. We now have something to work with.
    Not that those points you have sited as workable are not valid, quite the contrary, but they only fit one model. They presuppose an eternal state of being after this human life.
  15. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 22:191 edit
    Originally posted by eagles54
    Not that those points you have sited as workable are not valid, quite the contrary, but they only fit one model. They presuppose an eternal state of being after this human life.
    Yes, this thread is intended to operate under that presumption. It was motivated by the constant vagaries of "You must do this to get to Heaven", or "You'll go to Hell if you don't do that" routinely observed here, yet never stated precisely for the record, and never agreed upon by more than one participant.
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