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Originally posted by whodey
I think it is a fair question. The question is, why do we suffer?
The question is, why do we suffer?
Suffering is nature's way of saying, get the hell out of this mess! Unfortunately that is not always possible. A design flaw, perhaps? Or perhaps it is the ultimate stimulus toward enlightenment.
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Originally posted by FMF
To me, your suggestion that the "mob" who called for Jesus' crucifixion "knew" that Jesus was the "Son of God" ~ and therefore their call for his execution was "the darkest occurrence of the human imagination in history" ~ seems absolutely ludicrous.
Jesus called that night a time of the authority of darkness and Satan personally entered into Judas to initiate it (John 13:27).
So I regard the evaluation of that night given by Jesus much more seriously than the evaluation you give to it.
Jesus said to the mob "While I was with you day by day in the temple, you did not stretch out your hand against Me. But this is your hour and the authority of darkness." (Luke 22:53)
His reference to "the authority of darkness" indicates the full activity and power of Satan to do whatever he wished to do. Whereas before the Devil and his instigation in men was limited and held back, this night of Christ's betrayal was the Devil's hour.
You may consider it ludicrous such a night be considered so thoroughly dark (perhaps the darkest), but Jesus said He could have called twelve legions of angels to wage supernatural warfare against the mob, had He not been willing to be put to death.
There have been many evil times in human history. I don't know how many would have warranted the immediate dispatching of (in Roman military terms) a counter response of "twelve legions of angels" . That is a divine intervention of huge proportions to prevent the Son of God from being "numbered with the transgressors" as if He had been an evil doer.
Anyway, enthroning the most evil day in history is not as important as recognizing with what brightness Jesus still shines upon such a black background. If you want to argue that worse nights occurred, I don't care that much about that.
What is more important is the splendor of the One who voluntarily stepped forward to die because of such a momentous injustice, on behalf of all sinners. That One was God become a man to die.
No, I do not think "eternal punishment" came out of the imagination of man, before it was revealed by God in the Bible.
I think probably man embellished upon the concept with his imagination as in say Dante's "Divine Comedy". It is typical that men add their imaginative inventions to the sparse details revealed in God's revelation of the Bible.
I could be wrong. But I don't think the thought of being punished forever would occur to human beings. It would be difficult to prove that completely apart from the Bible the thought entered into man's imagination.
Maybe when I get time of exploring all the positive the riches of Christ, I'd take some time to research that - whether eternal punishment has ever been myth of mankind wholly unaided by God's communication to man in the Bible.
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Originally posted by JS357According to the OP, it is compulsory for God deliver everyone out of their particular mess no matter how messy they are.The question is, why do we suffer?
Suffering is nature's way of saying, get the hell out of this mess! Unfortunately that is not always possible. A design flaw, perhaps? Or perhaps it is the ultimate stimulus toward enlightenment.
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Can a congress of rapists be trusted to convene together and come up with what they think the crime of rape should be punished by? I would think that they would have a vested interest in assuring that the penalty for rape is either non-existent or rather light.
Can human beings rejecting to be related to God be relied upon to determine what the punishment for that offense should be ? I think not. I think they would have a vested interest that either God not exist, or that there be no penalty for unreconciled rebellion against God, or that the punishment be light.
We sinners cannot trust that we would be just in determining what God should do with unreconciled disbelief in Christ. God has determined it.
Originally posted by sonshipWhat I consider ludicrous is your claim that the "mob" who called for Jesus' crucifixion "knew" that Jesus was the "Son of God".
You may consider it ludicrous such a night be considered so thoroughly dark (perhaps the darkest), but Jesus said He could have called twelve legions of angels to wage supernatural warfare against the mob, had He not been willing to be put to death.
Originally posted by sonshipCan human beings claiming to be related to God be relied upon to determine what the punishment is for those that do not believe their claims?
Can human beings rejecting to be related to God be relied upon to determine what the punishment for that offense should be?.
Originally posted by FMFAnd based upon the words of Christ Himself, I think we can say if not the whole mob, the main instigators knew Who He was.
What I consider ludicrous is your claim that the "mob" who called for Jesus' crucifixion "knew" that Jesus was the "Son of God".
They hated that He acted contrary to what they thought such a Son of God and Messiah should act like.
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Originally posted by FMF
Can human beings claiming to be related to God be relied upon to determine what the punishment is for those that do not believe their claims?
Can human beings claiming to be related to God be relied upon to determine what the punishment is for those that do not believe their claims?
If God were to come to me and say "sonship / Mr. jaywill, I leave it completely up to YOU. What would you determine I should do with someone who does not listen to your presentation of the Gospel?"
I would say "God I would rather not touch that decision at all no matter what."
I do not assume to relate to anyone other than the crucial and clear things written for all to read there in the Bible.
I think that when I do veer off into an uncertain area I preface it with stating it is my opinion which is not to be taken as infallible.
In short, I think the One the Gospel hearer has to wrestle with is not the messenger. He or she needs to go in private and in prayer and "wrestle" with Jesus Christ about the matter.
Originally posted by sonshipYou haven't made the case. But you can believe what you want. Personally I think the claim that the mob "knew" that Jesus was "Son of God" is one of the most ridiculously grasping things you have ever said in this forum.
And based upon the words of Christ Himself, I think we can say if not the whole mob, the main instigators knew Who He was. They hated that He acted contrary to what they thought such a Son of God and Messiah should act like.
Originally posted by sonshipIt seems to me you've simply dodged the question I posed.
If God were to come to me and say "sonship / Mr. jaywill, I leave it completely up to [b]YOU. What would you determine I should do with someone who does not listen to your presentation of the Gospel?"
I would say "God I would rather not touch that decision at all no matter what."
I do not assume to relate to anyone other than the crucial[/ ...[text shortened]... He or she needs to go in private and in prayer and "wrestle" with Jesus Christ about the matter.
Originally posted by FMFEvidence is not persuasion.
You haven't made the case. But you can believe what you want. Personally I think the claim that the mob "knew" that Jesus was "Son of God" is one of the most ridiculously grasping things you have ever said in this forum.
How would you interpret the words of Jesus that when the owner of the vineyard sent to the tenets his son, they retorted "This is the heir. Come and let us kill him and the inheritance will be ours." ?
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Originally posted by FMFFrom another thread it seems to me that you have decided what you really don't like in the New Testament and persuaded yourself that such a book is not in the canon.
It seems to me you've simply dodged the question I posed.
Tell me then, what did your NT canon consist of without the books that bother you, on say, the matter of God's judgment ?
Originally posted by sonshipShow me where it is stated that the mob that called for Jesus' crucifixion "knew" that he was the "Son Of God" and then I will concede that it is a clearly documented part of your Christian mythology.
Evidence is not persuasion.
How would you interpret the words of Jesus that when the owner of the vineyard sent to the tenets his [b]son, they retorted "This is the heir. Come and let us kill him and the inheritance will be ours." ?[/b]