Originally posted by sonshipsonship. Please. I am asking you not to hijack this thread.I self-identified as a Christian till well past the age of 30.
Now that's sounding a little familiar. Go on.
You're talking nonsense and I think you know it.
About your background. Please go on.
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Look, I don't recognize the authority of the bible in spiritual matters. You don't accept it or you brist ...[text shortened]... ow for face value. But I don't think I am mistaken about something I read from you in the past.
Originally posted by KellyJaySo if we held ALL citizens to the same standard and executed them for petty crimes would that be "fair"? Would it be "justice"?
Fair just means that everyone will be held the same standards, which will
be the case! It again isn't going to mean that if you agree with the
punishment has anything to do with event being fair, if our guilt means we
go here and not there, than we will go here and not there.
Originally posted by FMFNo more "hijacking" the thread.
Billions upon billions of innocent people, past, present, future, and ~ we are assured ~forever, being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony ~ all for a thought crime.
Has the human imagination ever been to a darker place than this?
Billions upon billions of innocent people, past, present, future, and ~ we are assured ~forever, being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony ~ all for a thought crime.
Has the human imagination ever been to a darker place than this?
Its a loaded question.
"Has there been anything worse than you beating your wife ?"
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Originally posted by sonshipWell, I can't pretend that I think the "eternal torment" concept is real or true, so I referred it as "imaginings". So, sure, it's a loaded question in that respect. But it's not difficult.
Its a loaded question.
"Has there been anything worse than you beating your wife ?"
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sonship: "Has there been anything worse than you beating your wife ?"
FMF: "I don't and never have beaten my wife."
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FMF: "Billions upon billions of people ...suffering in excruciating agony ...for eternity ... for a thought crime ... Has the human imagination ever been to a darker place than this?
sonship: "It's not 'imagining'. It's for real."
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or
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Rank Outsider: " Yes. The concept that the being that supposedly created this scenario is loving and deserving of worship."
As I say,it's not difficult.
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Originally posted by FMF
Well, I can't pretend that I think the "eternal torment" concept is real or true, so I referred it as "imaginings". So, sure, it's a loaded question in that respect. But it's not difficult.
sonship: "Has there been anything worse than you beating your wife ?"
FMF: "I don't and never have beaten my wife."
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FMF: " ...[text shortened]... sedly created this scenario is loving and deserving of worship."
As I say,it's not difficult.
sonship: "It's not 'imagining'. It's for real."
Are you paraphrasing words into my mouth ?
You are not quoting any posting I wrote, I am pretty sure.
That there is nothing worse for sinners than eternal damnation, I agree.
That billions of "innocent" people will so perish I never agreed with you. Their "innocence" is probably your imagination.
God could use His perfect justice and devise a plan in which all of their sins are completely washed away. And God could enact a salvation in which another is judged for their sakes and God now looks upon them as if they had never sinned at all.
But we know from the Bible that this is precisely what is being rejected and refused by the lost from most of what we read in Scripture.
That eternal punishment is the worse possible fate, I do not argue with. That it is the fate of the "innocent" is your imagination.
That God is unjust and unrighteous or that your own righteousness exceeds that of God's and Christ, is also, I believe, your imagination.
Originally posted by sonshipThe notion of "justice" referenced in the OP has it that one only has to be an "unbeliever" to suffer the fate of torture by fire for eternity. If one is only an "unbeliever" then what crime are they "guilty" of?
That billions of [b]"innocent" people will so perish I never agreed to you was not imaginary. Their "innocence" is probably your imagination.[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipI think I can agree with you here. When I imagine the God figure you and Grampy Bobby promote and when I imagine the "eternal torment" you both (and others here propagate), then I think of your theological theories and your God figure as "unjust and unrighteous". For sure. And yes my righteousness exceeds the one you favour because even if I could, I would not consign billions upon billions of people to an eternity of excruciating torture for exercising their free will and thus being "unbelievers".
That God is unjust and unrighteous or that your own righteousness exceeds that of God's and Christ, is also, I believe, your imagination.
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Originally posted by FMF
The notion of "justice" referenced in the OP has it that one only has to be an "unbeliever" to suffer the fate of torture by fire for eternity. If one is only an "unbeliever" then what crime are they "guilty" of?
The notion of "justice" referenced in the OP has it that one only has to be an "unbeliever" to suffer the fate of torture by fire for eternity. If one is only an "unbeliever" then what crime are they "guilty" of?
Unbelief in God including rejection of the Savior and all crimes committed.
Suppose the "fire" is indicated to communicate something worse ?
I do not know the temperature of the lake of fire. It could be spoken about in terms that the most people can understand the misfortune of.
When Satan rebelled it says that God drew forth fire from his midst. It is as if something IN him was spreading and burning him up so to speak, from within.
While some matters are not easy for me to understand or explain about the lake of fire, one thing is quite evident. No one took more seriously the need for sinners to be saved than did Jesus. If the need was not so pressed upon Him to save us then I don't think He would have undergone all that He did.
He did not regard it as a ludicrous matter. He regarded it with such a desperate seriousness that cost Him (who was innocent) everything. That is not only in the pain inflicted by man, but the unknown horror of His alienation and judgment under the Divine wrath of the Father.
You can take Christ lightly or you can take Him seriously.
I take Him seriously as the need to be clothed in His redemptive blood.
"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)
While I do not claim to be able to explain everything to the last degree concerning God's judgment, I think we know enough to both see the need of our believing into Christ and of, according to His command, taking the message to the world of His salvation.
You have a better way to live ?
Go ahead and go with that.
But I think a big part of the problem skeptics have is the failure to realize the perfection of the God behind all the universe. If there were only the matter of justice and no love, then I too would be skeptical. But there is this balancing coordination between the eternal righteousness of God and His eternal love.
I think that the story of the Gospel is that as far as it is possible for us to understand - God laid down all that He is in His love for us. That is though He will not give up His rightness.
Originally posted by sonshipIt almost seems sometimes as if you oppose the crucifixion.
He did not regard it as a ludicrous matter. He regarded it with such a desperate seriousness that cost Him (who was innocent) everything. That is not only in the pain inflicted by man, but the unknown horror of His alienation and judgment under the Divine wrath of the Father.
If nobody had called for Jesus' execution, and he had lived out his life, would that not have ruined his supposed mission?
Originally posted by sonshipI am of the school of thought that says this "love for us" that you imagine He has, where unbelief among people with free will is punished in the most sadistic way imaginable is ghastly and grotesque. When one considers the sheers scale of the number of its imagined victims ~ plus it being touted [in an Orwellian way] as perfect "Justice" and "Love" etc. etc. ~ I would describe it as human imagination, myth and folklore at its most morally depraved. You can think of it as "love" though, by all means.
I think that the story of the Gospel is that as far as it is possible for us to understand - God laid down all that He is in His love for us.
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Originally posted by FMF
So you are not calling "Unbelief in God" a crime then?
So you are not calling "Unbelief in God" a crime then?
How would you interpret the plain words of Scripture, for example, here:
"He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)
I interpret John the Baptist there to be warning us that God is angry at man not believing in Jesus the Son of God.
I regard this as not a matter of ignorance but of refusal to believe.
I have been a Bible reader long enough to know that I cannot win every game of "Stump the Chumps". Yes, you can think of questions hard for me to answer.
The issue, I think, is not with the things we do not know. It is with the things that we DO know from the Scripture.
The question of "Exactly from WHAT is Jesus saving man?" can be difficult for some people to answer in a completely air tight and concrete sealed fashion. There are some unknowns.
But as a follower of Jesus I am mostly concerned with what the knowns are. And "What shall I do with Jesus?" is a matter the recipient of the Gospel message needs to consider.
Sometimes I wonder if rejection of a superstitious presentation of a statue as someone's idol savior is rejection of Christ. I doubt that. God knows and I think the thought of an unjust God is imaginary and false.
Even Paul the apostle wrote sometimes in a manner that he had a question about something related to God's eternal purpose.
What about the things which are pretty clear ?
" ... And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:12,14,15) .
Are there some unknown matters ? Yes, I believe so.
Are there some matters difficult to explain ? Yes, I have questions too.
But what about the things which are pretty clear? The "book of life" is the "Lamb's" book of life. The Lamb is the Redeemer - the Son of God, the Son of Man.
We need to believe into the Lamb of God for redemption. The book of life belongs to Him.
Some skeptical person will not be satisfied with this. No, they may demand a perfectly systematized flow chart which is consistent to the Nth degree - totally air tight and so sealed in concrete logic that not a hair of the unknown can slip between the stones.
Read my keyboard. I cannot give that to you or any other unbeliever.
How about the things which are clear ? Should we fight against such clear teachings from a Man like Jesus Christ ?
This is a choice everyone has to decide for themselves.