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Originally posted by FMF
I am of the school of thought that says this "love for us" that you imagine He has, where unbelief among people with free will is punished in the most sadistic way imaginable is ghastly and grotesque. When one considers the sheers scale of the number of its imagined victims ~ plus it being touted [in an Orwellian way] as perfect "Justice" and "Love" etc. etc. ~ I would describe it as human imagination, myth and folklore at its most morally depraved. You can think of it as "love" though, by all means.
The Bible describes John's vision of the saved as a number no one could count:
"After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number ..." (Rev. 7:9a)
It further tells me that this impossible to count of saved people comes from every nation and ethnicity and language:
" ... I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ..." (7:9b)
Whenever the disciples questioned Jesus about percentages of people saved He never gave them a definite number or indication. He only directed THEM to enter into the narrow gate of salvation. Rather than respond with percentages He exhorted them to pursue eternal life.
So no one knows the proportions of those saved and those not. Satan deceived one third of the angels. It could have been more but it was not for some reason.
Another consideration I have is about the one thousand year long millennial kingdom. We know that the eternal age does not begin immediately after the second coming of Christ. Rather He sets up a millennial kingdom of one thousand years.
During this time there is a recovery of the Paradise conditions over the earth. And nations live under Christ and His co-kings. Satan is bound for one thousand years. And mankind witnesses the global salvation of the earth as populations apparently continue to give birth and multiply.
Here's the kicker. You would think that after this period of a paradise restored to mankind on this planet, everyone present would be totally convinced of the goodness of God and of Christ. Right ?
Sorry. Wrong. The prophecy of Revelation says that after the millennial kingdom Satan will be loosed from his prison for a season and will go out to once again ferment rebellion through deception among the human race:
" And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.
And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone , where also the beast and the false prophet were ..." (Rev. 20:7-10a)
I could not believe that after 1,000 years of God demonstrating His loving care in restoring the Paradise to the planet with nations enjoying its blessing, that some of these could be deceived again.
How could such witnesses to God's blessings and care afterwards forget and rejoin a released Satan to rebel against God ?
This must be a testament to firstly Satan's refusal to ever repent, and secondly to a large amount of humanity's incurable propensity to join in following Satan to overthrow God's government.
When I first read this as a very young Christian it seemed like a good Marvel Comic book where you have a villain who is so good that you bring him back into the story. Latter, I came to believe that this was no fiction. God would demonstrate that even after 20 centuries of a paradise earth in which there is healing, plenty, blessing, peace, harmony among nations and joy for the earth under the king Messiah - Christ, Satan would never repent. And a large number of those who witnessed the goodness of God directly for that time would go back to utter rebellion.
My bet is that it is inevitable that we will see this matter of judgment upon unbelief through the eyes of God.
It is my opinion at this time, that in eternity God will keep the lost too occupied with their own sufferings to be able to carry out crimes upon each other further. I think they will be all together. This is my opinion which could be wrong.
I think suffering restricts them from further acting evilly against one another forever.
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Originally posted by FMF
I think I can agree with you here. When I [b]imagine the God figure you and Grampy Bobby promote and when I imagine the "eternal torment" you both (and others here propagate), then I think of your theological theories and your God figure as "unjust and unrighteous". For sure. And yes my righteousness exceeds the one you favour because even if I could, I would not consign billions upon billions of people to an eternity of excruciating torture for exercising their free will and thus being "unbelievers".[/b]
I understand perhaps your disdain.
But this is what you have to understand. It is from the mouth of Jesus Christ that we gain for the far greater part, our understanding the last judgment of God. The Person to blame for this teaching is not Grampy or sonship. You have to blame Jesus because it is from His mouth that the teaching came.
This is the same Speaker who also spoke the most comforting words of forgiveness, of love, of long suffering, of understanding, of willingness to pardon, and of redemptive rescue.
The same mouth that uttered the most wonderful words of grace and redemption also uttered the most fearsome words of judgment.
This has to be taken seriously by me. These most stern words God reserved for the most loving Son to speak to the world.
The epistles and Revelation are only based upon what Jesus spoke.
Originally posted by FMFIt is where your heart is. If you love, have compassion, care of others, as in the Good Samaritan. Jesus already lives in you.
So unbelievers don't necessarily get punished?
If you claim to be Christian, and have no love for others, and do not care for anyone and have no compassion, then God will have nothing to do with you.
Originally posted by FMFMankind does not know the depth of darkness when it comes to the Lake of Fire. But maybe we can witness the depravity of man from the human past. Germanys camps of WWII. The experimentation of men and women, and all the horrible acts that were done. And what of the more "modern" camps of torture around the world.
Has the human imagination ever been to a darker place than the scenario summarized in the OP?
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Originally posted by Rajk999The wages of sin are death. The death that the scripture is talking about here is separation from God.
Pudgenik, where do these verses if into your doctrine:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[b] The wages of sin is death .. not torment.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destr ...[text shortened]... oul and body in hell.
Fear God because he will to destroy [not torment] in hell [/b]
When we die in the physical sense, it is the temple of the Holy Spirit that dies, not us. Jesus stated, "love God with all your heart, love God with all your mind, love God with all your soul, love God with all your strength." Never does he say body. The body is only a shell, like a snails shell.
It is written, 'that even though you die, you are alive in Christ.'
It is also written, 'we are created in the image of God' and it is also written 'I knew you before you were born'
All these versus teach of eternal beings.
Originally posted by PudgenikWhat are your thoughts on 'eternal separation'. Are you aware? The question is not a test, just curious about your view.
The wages of sin are death. The death that the scripture is talking about here is separation from God.
When we die in the physical sense, it is the temple of the Holy Spirit that dies, not us. Jesus stated, "love God with all your heart, love God with all your mind, love God with all your soul, love God with all your strength." Never does he say body. T ...[text shortened]... t is also written 'I knew you before you were born'
All these versus teach of eternal beings.
Originally posted by PudgenikSo the darkness and depravity that you imagine God has in store for unbelievers is something worse that what the Germans did with the concentration camps in the 1940s? Is that your point?
Mankind does not know the depth of darkness when it comes to the Lake of Fire. But maybe we can witness the depravity of man from the human past. Germanys camps of WWII. The experimentation of men and women, and all the horrible acts that were done. And what of the more "modern" camps of torture around the world.
Originally posted by Pudgenik
The wages of sin are death. The death that the scripture is talking about here is separation from God.
When we die in the physical sense, it is the temple of the Holy Spirit that dies, not us. Jesus stated, "love God with all your heart, love God with all your mind, love God with all your soul, love God with all your strength." Never does he say body. T ...[text shortened]... t is also written 'I knew you before you were born'
All these versus teach of eternal beings.
All these verses teach of eternal beings.As eternal as the human soul may be, how much more terrible judgement would the final death of the soul be to us? Why is "eternal torment" necessary?
