Originally posted by wolfgang59
Yes - given their evangelical style it could be demoralising tofor them to see those figures.

Interesting to see would be numbers for [b]all religions of converts.
I suggest it would be very small, ... very, very small.[/b]

We operate in an environment of almost constant negativity. It helps immensely if one keeps a positive outlook. Our figures are printed yearly in our yearbook, rather than being demoralising they are generally a great source of joy for as Jesus stated even if one sheep that was lost is found then all the other ninety nine will rejoice over it. He also stated that the path is narrow and few are the ones finding it 😀

Originally posted by roigam

Excuse me, it is Christendom that mistakenly think that the first born Son of God is God himself.

The Son of God is God Himself.
From incarnation He is Godman so He is still God Himself, yet also man.

Speaking of Christ Colossians 1:15,16 says -

Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, BECAUSE ...

Very often some who doubt Christ is God ignore the "Because" of the "For" of the next part of this passage. This time I hope you will consider WHY Christ is called the image of the invisible God.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones of lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him. And He is before all things."

All the universe was created through Christ.
All atoms and whatever other existing elementary particles were created through Christ.

Since some were not preexisting and used to create Christ, that means that He pre-existed them all as the eternal God. So Christ was not the first creature created out of any elemental particles because Christ was the source of THEIR creation.

What about something OTHER than elemental physical particles? Could Christ be some composition of "invisible" things ? No.

He "is the image of the invisible God" on one hand yet all things "invisible" were created through Him.

"Because in Him all things were created, ... the visible and the INVISIBLE ..." .

Since Christ is means through which all things "invisible" or "visible" were created - He preexists ALL invisible or visible things. He was not the first "invisible" creature created and then all OTHER invisible things were created.

IE He is not the first invisible creation who preceded all other invisible creations. Rather Christ is the UNCREATED image of the invisible God.

He preceded all things in any way "invisible" - "in the heavens". He also preceded all things in any way "invisible" - "on the earth".

The Arian heresy reads into the passage "all [other] things" . The word of God says "in Him [Christ] all things" [not all OTHER things] were created, in the heavens and on the earth, ..."

So "the Firstborn of all creation" who is "the image of the invisible God" is so BECAUSE He is uncreated time wise.

But why does it say He is the "Firstborn"? Doesn't that imply that He was born into existence by some sort of creation?

Yes it does imply creation. But it means Christ in incarnation partook of His own creation. The Word that was with God and was God became flesh "(John 1:1,14).

Without doubt - flesh is an item of the creation of God.
Without doubt - flesh is not an uncreated and eternal matter.
Without doubt - "God created man" (Gen. 1:26,27) so MAN is an item of God's creation.

So in incarnation in God clothing Himself in flesh, becoming a man, in joining His eternal uncreated being TO that which has been created - man, flesh, the human being ...Christ has the preeminence and first place among all things created.

The "Firstborn of all creation" in verse 15 is not [time wise] the first thing God created. Rather it is God Himself having the preeminent first place of utmost priority in His being incarnated.

We believe that the disciple Peter said it right when Jesus asked him: (Matthew 16:15-17) He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the "Son" of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.

If we go back now to the Colossian passage we should appreciate that the apostolic revelation is that this Son was the image of the invisible God. So it is no wonder that Jesus said what Peter saw he saw by pure revelation. Flesh and blood did not reveal this to him.

By the Father's revelation Peter was able to grasp that the Son of the living God was the image of the invisible God. This is God defined. This is God made known. This is God declared and God expressed.

Neither Colossians 1:15 or Matthew 16:16,17 give you any ground whatever to teach Christ is the archangel Michael, or was, or shall be again someday, in any regard.

Neither passage proves God did not become a man.

" ... and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh" (John 1:1,14) .

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

To the uninitiated this appears strange but for those with knowledge it accomplished many things. Christ proved that a perfect man could keep his integrity while under the severest of pressures, proving that Adams course of moral independence from God was willful and his condemnation to death, just. He provided in purely legalistic terms a propitiatory sacrifice making it possible for persons to approach God on the basis of his sacrifice, not to be actually righteous, but to be declared righteous resulting in a cleansed conscience.

The death of Christ does not only have its redeeming aspect. The whole Gospel proves it has its aspect of propagating of that one divine life into many others who receive Him.

John 12:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."

This is the propagating property of Christ's death.
This is the multiplicative aspect of Christ's death.

What was concealed in Him, through His death, is released into "many grains". The one grain as the container of the one divine life would not want to abide alone. He would fall into the ground and die in order that what He is would be multiplied.

"Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides ALONE ... ".

Christ came not only for redemption but for multiplication.
Christ came not only for the legal propitiation for sins.
Christ DIED that what was concealed within Him would escape the shell of His broken humanity and be released into many believers. They then become the multiplication of the one grain into much fruit.

" ... but if it dies, it bears much fruit." .

In resurrection Jesus Christ increased. One Godman has been duplicated to become many Godmen. This increase of Christ into many sons of God is what He called Him being glorified.

"And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly ... Unless the grain of wheat fails into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."

Nothing is said here about the blood redemption.
What is said here is about the life multiplication.
And for the Son of Man to be glorified is associated with the one grain becoming many grains in duplication.

For the Son of Man to release what is concealed in the shell of His humanity out at death, and dispensed into many other people is for the Son of man to be "glorified" .

This portion is not about Christ sitting in heaven in some bright glory, though that is certainly true. Rather the emphasis here is the glorification of the ONE grain dying to produce many grains, much fruit.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] To the uninitiated this appears strange but for those with knowledge it accomplished many things. Christ proved that a perfect man could keep his integrity while under the severest of pressures, proving that Adams course of moral independence from God was willful and his condemnation to death, just. He provided in purely legalistic terms a propitiato ...[text shortened]... he emphasis here is the glorification of the ONE grain dying to produce many grains, much fruit.

Jaywill you know I do not accept your mysticism. Jesus becomes a father to all those who accept him, he gives life, everlasting life in fact. There is nothing mystical about it. I know of no such reference in the Bible, 'Godman', please try to control your reasoning.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
and yet you have no objection to Christmas and its equally as pagan, why is that?

I don't celebrate Christmas as a religious festival either because it is also pagan.

Next.

Originally posted by roigam
Just saying what the Bible says. Is that hard to swallow?

No, you are just repeating what your cult's leaders tell you what they think the Bible says. Big difference.

Originally posted by roigam
Sorry I missed this thread as we were too busy commemorating the sacrificial death of Christ Jesus that gives us our only chance to regain everlasting life.
I'm catching up tho.

I'm afraid I don't believe you. Like your colleague Galveston75 you seem to have convenient selective awareness of what threads and posts you reply to.

I'm still waiting for you to reply to several of my posts in various threads, some of which I have repeatedly "bumping" for you so many times it has become a sort of joke.

Originally posted by roigam
Hey "D" are you in a lot of Pain?
You seem cranky and not able to focuson reason.

I assure you I am quite well and more than happy to engage with you on any of these topics. The problem is getting you to follow through instead of disappearing with your lame excuses.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't celebrate Christmas as a religious festival either because it is also pagan.

Next.

The fact that I know that Yahshua, Christ Jesus, was born as the Passover Lamb at the time of Passover does not prevent me from celebrating Christmas with those that don't know any better.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
The fact that I know that Jesus was born as the Passover Lamb at the time of Passover does not prevent me from celebrating Christmas with those that don't know any better.

What do you celebrate at Christmas with these poor unfortunates who know less than you?

Originally posted by RJHinds
The fact that I know that Yahshua, Christ Jesus, was born as the Passover Lamb at the time of Passover does not prevent me from celebrating Christmas with those that don't know any better.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

You sound the sort of character that would have no qualms bowing to to Baal on the plains of Moab either.

Originally posted by divegeester
What do you celebrate at Christmas with these poor unfortunates who know less than you?

Everything that the others celebrate at Christmas. What else would I be celebrating?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
You sound the sort of character that would have no qualms bowing to to Baal on the plains of Moab either.

Not so. I don't know Baal as God or Lord. You wont see me bowing to Allah either. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Everything that the others celebrate at Christmas. What else would I be celebrating?

Christ's birth but you say you don't recognise December 25th that way but now you are saying you celebrate "Everything that the others celebrate at Christmas". 😕

Originally posted by divegeester
Christ's birth but you say you don't recognise December 25th that way but now you are saying you celebrate "Everything that the others celebrate at Christmas". 😕

So what? Haven't you ever celebrated someone's birthday on a different day from their birth as well as their true birthday? My family has done that quite often. We just did it the following week this year for my own birthday becasue we buried one of my sons on my actual birthday. 😏