14 Apr '15 08:0715 edits

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

However, New world translation reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever.’” (AT, Mo, TC, By convey the same idea.)

That doesn't even make sense. Can you think of any other passage in the whole Bible saying God is someone's throne?

In coming days I will look into those renderings. But I wouldn't trust them so easily.

Which rendering is harmonious with the context? The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel.

You are right that the import of the passage is of "God's God" or "the God of God".

But this is no more a paradox than that the Word was with God and was God - ( John 1:1)

And argue as you may you cannot dismiss that you DO NOT have the Bible ever saying that Michael an angel and the Father will come to make an abode with the believers. But you do have Jesus saying He and His Father as the Divine "We" will come to make an abode with His lovers.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

Can you show me any Bible passage saying the archangel Michael and Jehovah God will together come to indwell the believers ? You cannot. Don't bother trying.

So while I sympathize with your objection that Hebrews one has for all practical purposes "God's God" or "the God of God" we know that when Jesus came into us God became real to us. Indeed the Father and the Son as the Divine "We" came to us. And we cannot detect or discern any difference.

If you have not had this experience then you are just running on natural human reasoning.

The Trinity completely involves God dispensing Himself into man to be man's divine and eternal life.

Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in Revised Standard, reads “Your divine throne.” Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chron. 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him.

Look at each of these verses:

1.) Psalm 45:6 - "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..."

It says that God possesses a throne - "Your throne, O God ...". It does not say that God IS a throne.

2.) First Chronicles 29:23 - "And Solomon sat upon the throne of Jehovah as king in place of David his father and prospered, and all Israel obeyed him."

Here also you have God possessing a throne - "the throne of Jehovah". I don't see anything in this verse about God BEING a throne.

That Solomon is the immediate referent to the son of David sitting on the throne of Jehovah, I have no objection.

But all of the positive figures in the Old Testament were in one way or another POINTERS to the Son of God. Jesus came and said something greater than Solomon is here.

" ... and behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42a)

So Solomon was a type and symbol of a greater One to come - the Son of God. And you know Solomon with his idolatry and 600 wives and 300 concubines fell short of the one fully pleasing to the Father.

While the NT passages often refer to Old Testament references to Old Testament figures, they served only as pointers, types, shadows of the ultimate coming One - the Son of God who is God incarnate as a Godman.

So profound is God's economy that it took centuries of many symbolic ones leading up to the most profound truth - God and man united in a Person - Jesus Christ.

" ... something more than Solomon is here" says the Son of God (Matt. 12:42)

3.) Daniel 7:13,14 - "I watched in the night visions, And there with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming."

First of all, this is not Christ coming TO earth. This is Christ coming TO heaven in His ascension after His death and resurrection. He is coming to be inaugurated in His ascending as seen in Revelation 5.

The coming of the Son of Man is to HEAVEN here rather than to EARTH.

"And He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. And to Him was given dominion glory, and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages might serve Him"

Christ taught that after His resurrection, it was like a time in which He went away to a far country to receive a kingdom -

Luke 19:12 - "He said therefore, A certain man of noble birth went to a distant country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return."

In one sense the Son of Man ascended to heaven to the Father to receive a kingdom. This was like Him going to a far country to return.

While I see distinction between the Father and the Son in the Daniel passage, I reserve the right to believe ALL that the Bible teaches. And the other part of this truth is that Father and Son as the Divine "WE" will come to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus all during the church age [edited] ( John 14:23 ).

And we into whom the divine "WE" of the Father and Son have come simply cannot discern any difference between them. They are distinct yet not separated. One lives in the Other. And when the divine "We" comes into us God becomes real to us.

Jesus being presented to the Ancient of Days (the Father) to receive a dominion and kingdom is rather objective and easy to understand. The Divine [edited] "WE" of the Father and the Son coming to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus is much more subjective and experiential.

Rather than deny this or fight against this, I take this WITH the Daniel passage also. And there is nothing in the Daniel passage saying that Jehovah God IS a throne.

4.) Luke 1:32 - "He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of David His father."

There is nothing here about Jehovah God BEING a throne.
Solomon sat on the throne of David which the OT said was God's throne understandably.

However, this has limitation because both David and Solomon were only pointers to the more perfect One who is the greater one than all the Old Testament patriarchs, prophets, kings, etc. None were sinless. None were that One in Whom the Father found His full delight - PERFECT. None save Jesus Christ.

None of these passages support an understanding that Hebrews 1 is saying God IS a throne that the Son is sitting on. But that God HAS a throne is evident and obvious.

And while it is baffling that God's God is implied in Hebrews IT IS BY NO MEANS THE FIRST TIME that the unusual nature of God as being like this, is seen in the Bible.

Now, before I close, Daniel shows both the Son of man ascending to the Father to receive a kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14 AND Christ coming to the earth as the expression of Godman to establish that kingdom to the earth (Daniel 7:9-10)

"I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down, His clothing was like white snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool, His throne was flames of fire.

A stream of fire issued forth and came out from before Him. Thousands of thousands ministered to Him. And ten thousands of [edited] ten thousands stood before Him. The court of judgment sat, and the books were opened."

So Daniel had visions of the second coming and earthly kingdom of Christ (7:9,10) first, and the previous ascension and inauguration after His resurrection, second (7:13,14)

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