The natural

@moonbus said
@KellyJay

Looking for the first cause of all things is either one or two different things, an endless regress of this came from that, or something that did not require to be created because it always was.

For the umpteenth time, you present a false dichotomy. There are several other options. This has been explained to you many times in several threads over the years, and you still don't get it.

When you offer nothing why should I change my mind, when you cannot commit to this most likely/reasonable cause, why should I change my mind? You cannot even admit that the genetic code plays a part in the behavior of life, and you think anything you say about the beginning should have any weight at all, what is right in front of your face you don't recognize, and I'm supposed to take you seriously on things that may have started it all that are beyond our ability to see only consider? For a smart person, you are wasting your brain avoiding topics rather than looking at them seriously.

@moonbus said
Nothing ironic about it at all; logic is not specific to any particular faith (or lack thereof).

Given that there is no a priori argument why the universe could not cease to exist from one instant to the next, for no reason or cause, there is no reason to make any assumptions whatever about beginnings or origins or lack thereof. Origin-fixation is peculiar to the Judeo-Christian mythology. For me, it's a non-issue.

Perhaps I was not polite by not first allowing KellyJay to address it, since your list was directed at him. But I did refrain from commenting on your reply to me.

And now that I noticed KellyJay has addressed it, I can proceed with my reply to you.

Politely speaking, I would first ask this: Does logic come with a guarantee for truth?

And regarding your acceptance of Ockham's logic, would you easily disregard the other thoughts and ideas this man of logic had on God, faith, and cosmology?

As far as 'origin-fixation' being peculiar to the Judeo-Christian religions, it would seem to be peculiarly biased. Many other religious and philosophical traditions also have their own creation stories or beliefs about the origin of the universe.

But then, apparently, it would seem that religion(s) is peculiarly all mythology to you. Is this a logical approach on your part?

Is it also a non-issue for you whether the universe is infinite or not?

@kellyjay said
When you offer nothing why should I change my mind, when you cannot commit to this most likely/reasonable cause, why should I change my mind? You cannot even admit that the genetic code plays a part in the behavior of life, and you think anything you say about the beginning should have any weight at all, what is right in front of your face you don't recognize, and I'm suppo ...[text shortened]... or a smart person, you are wasting your brain avoiding topics rather than looking at them seriously.

You have been previously told that you should change your mind about trying to make an argument for the existence of God through physical empirical evidence.

Again, God made it a point to be a mystery to mankind. Only in the end will the mystery be explained and shown to the point of being beyond the 'shadow' of a doubt. It's all about faith. If your faith can be strengthened by seeing evidence for God's existence through empirical scientific data, then more power to you. You are closer to being able to move a mountain with these thoughts of yours.

In Luke 18:8, Jesus asks, "Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

An unsolved mystery and faith go hand-in-hand.

Revelation 10:7 states: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

I'm being a little playful with the linked song, as well as playing on the author's name, and aided by Socratic Ion Musing.

In Revelation 22:6-9, the angel addresses John, who has been taken to heaven, and refers to himself as a "fellow servant" of John and his brethren the prophets. This phrase is used to highlight the angel's role in serving alongside John and other prophets in revealing God's will and messages to humanity. The angel's statement is not meant to imply that he and John are angels in the same sense, but rather that they share a common purpose and function in God's plan.

"God takes away the minds of poets and musical artists, and uses them as his ministers, as he also uses diviners and holy prophets, in order that we who hear them may know them to be speaking not of themselves who utter these priceless words in a state of unconsciousness, but that God himself is the speaker, and that through them he is conversing with us."

YouTube

@pettytalk said
You have been previously told that you should change your mind about trying to make an argument for the existence of God through physical empirical evidence.

Again, God made it a point to be a mystery to mankind. Only in the end will the mystery be explained and shown to the point of being beyond the 'shadow' of a doubt. It's all about faith. If your faith can be streng ...[text shortened]... er, and that through them he is conversing with us."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lfVDxF9NJ8

I should change my mind, through physical empirical evidence, please show some that show the existence of God isn't the prime reality that all of reality not only comes from but also is maintained by Him.

God is not a mystery to mankind, God has made some promises that He keeps about Himself, that if we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him, and from there our walk with God begins.

By faith, we walk out our lives, if we have the final say in all truth then whatever we want or decide is it, there is nothing real that we don't believe to be real, regardless of what is right in front of us. The scary thing about this puts blinders on ourselves by our design, so it is a prison made of glass we cannot see it, but if we look beyond ourselves the truths about reality are there to find.

YouTube

@kellyjay said
God is not a mystery to mankind

If God is not currently a mystery to mankind, then how do theologians justify Revelation 10:7? "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

At what point in time was God a mystery? And at what point in time was the mystery revealed? I did not hear the seventh trump playing.

Is not the John who wrote Revelation also strongly assumed to be the same John who wrote the Gospel, and also the apostle whom Jesus loved?

Has Christ already returned to earth?

YouTube

@pettytalk said
If God is not currently a mystery to mankind, then how do theologians justify Revelation 10:7? "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

At what point in time was God a mystery? And at what point in time was the mystery revealed? I did not hea ...[text shortened]... sus loved?

Has Christ already returned to earth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLjbMBpGDA

Those walking with God are one batch of people, they have accepted the words of both the prophets and the apostles, along with all those who have come to walk with God through Jesus Christ. God is finalizing the end, evil and those who practice it shunning the forgiveness that God has offered are about to get slammed with the righteous judgment of God, they have already cried out for the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. The plan of God is now in the final stages of being completed, this temporary universe is about to go up in flames, evil and who shunned God's forgiveness by His grace through faith will be cast into a lake of fire, forever.

When Jesus returns, it will not be a secret thing, Jesus even warned us to watch out for those who say such things.


Matthew 24:22-24
English Standard Version
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

YouTube

@kellyjay said
I should change my mind, through physical empirical evidence, please show some that show the existence of God isn't the prime reality that all of reality not only comes from but also is maintained by Him.

Which God?

There are so many...

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Which God?

There are so many...

The One who created everything, including us, not any who were created by us.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Which God?

There are so many...

So many to choose from, so choose none.

It's still a miss.

@kellyjay said
God is finalizing the end, evil and those who practice it shunning the forgiveness that God has offered are about to get slammed with the righteous judgment of God, they have already cried out for the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb.

You have gone beyond the point of no return.

The wrath of the lamb? Since when are we to fear a lamb? I prefer my lamb chops grilled.

Who are those who have already cried out for the mountains to fall on them?

What foolishness are you muttering? Where did you get the idea that we are in the final stage of the end times? Are you claiming to be an end time expert, a time-tried true-blue eschatologist?

It's too bad you never really understood the music you gave up on when you said you found Jesus. I truly believe that Jesus would prefer to be a Rock and Roll fan rather than a fan of much of the music you listen to now.

YouTube

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Which God?

There are so many...

Jesus said that we are all gods. How many are we?

@pettytalk said
You have gone beyond the point of no return.

The wrath of the lamb? Since when are we to fear a lamb? I prefer my lamb chops grilled.

Who are those who have already cried out for the mountains to fall on them?

What foolishness are you muttering? Where did you get the idea that we are in the final stage of the end times? Are you claiming to be an end time expert, ...[text shortened]... er than a fan of much of the music you listen to now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVokojoF_lY

Revelation 6
Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

You can even anger the Spirit of grace, it isn't wise to do that!

Hebrews 10

Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

@kellyjay said
for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

Fear the wrath of the Lamb that bleats out to love a wolf?

I won't be afraid just as long as the apparent TRUTH stands by me.

It's apparently true that a Good loving Father will never use fear to obtain love from all His children.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven."

YouTube

@pettytalk said
Fear the wrath of the Lamb that bleats out to love a wolf?

I won't be afraid just as long as the apparent TRUTH stands by me.

It's apparently true that a Good loving Father will never use fear to obtain love from all His children.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those w ...[text shortened]... that you may be children of your Father in heaven."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rZyI7kPZMI

Picking and choosing just those things you like and are happy with makes it all about you.

@kellyjay said
Picking and choosing just those things you like and are happy with makes it all about you.

Would Jesus teach his brothers and sisters to love the enemy, but not adhere to what he teaches?

Was my picking not of your liking?